Ukrainians Fight Back As Russia Bombs Civilian Areas | Talking Points Memo

After Russia’s initial push to quickly take Kyiv and other major Ukrainian cities failed, the invasion force seems to have settled on a new strategy involving heavy attacks on Ukrainian centers of resistance.


This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://talkingpointsmemo.com/?p=1407094
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Col. Vindman thinks the initial Ukraine resistance and the onerous economic sanctions has humiliated Putin to the point where he is doubling down and wll ferociously attack Kyiv and Kharkiv next in the same manner he attacked cities in Checnya using heavy artillery and cluster bombs.

These attacks on civilians are crimes against humanity and should be charged and tried at the Hague. Putin must be content with never leaving Russia again, because if he does, Interpol will be required to grab him and imprison him. I hope they have small enough hand cuffs for his soulless cruel little man wrists. Hopeless narcissism is pathetic - SAD !!

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How quickly can this process be speeded up? Days? Weeks?

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Just maintain sanctions on Russia until Putin and his entire regime are delivered to The Hague.
That will get him.

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I think we can all agree that Putin is the good guy here. I mean, he’s rescuing all of these poor Ukrainian women and children from their oppressive Nazi government by killing them all.

You can’t be oppressed by an evil government if you’re dead, Right?

Yeah, I think Putin might very well go down as one of the most heroic saints of the entire 21st century for this.

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Western intelligence agencies report Putin just ordered his table extended from 30’ long to 60’ long.

(A couple more days of humiliating setbacks like these, and half of Russia may be deforested.)

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The fact that this has been announced is pretty much “game over” for Russia’s plans for Ukraine.
It’s a morale booster for the Ukrainians.
Kiev and Kharkiv may fall but Ukraine will survive and Russia will be humiliated.

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Hope all of Ukraine stands. The devastation and loss of life for everyone is a humiliation to the entire human race.

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Per Fred Kaplan in Slate today, the Russian army just isn’t very good. After citing last week’s events and Russian history over the last century, he also notes that they can overwhelm Ukraine by force of numbers alone, so the poor training and incompetence of their soldiers won’t be that much of a factor in the long run.

I have been deeply impressed by the Ukrainian response. Did we see anything comparable in Afghanistan? Iraq? Vietnam? My hazy memory is that in those other quagmires, the US military rolled in, in force, with advanced weapons that the indigenous forces could not maintain, and did the bulk of the fighting while the natives watched from the sidelines. Oh, and suffered under the corrupt puppet governments set up by the United States.

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Yes a number of observers think that’s the most likely direction. Russia tried something a bit different than their usual modus operandi, apparently(?) in the expectation resistance would collapse. Quite a hash of things so far. Therefore, back to the usual methods. Russia’s firepower advantage is very large, unfortunately.
The Ukrainians are effective against Russian forces when the former disperse themselves and confuse the tactical picture (for military nerds, see this paper from the US Army a few years back, based on earlier lessons from the first war in Donbass). Those same dispersed tactics make it very difficult for them to concentrate and prevent encirclement of large cities. So Russia will continue to take casualties, but the encirclements won’t stop. Then things are going to get really nasty. :frowning: We’re all hugely impressed by the fight the Ukrainians have put up, and will no doubt continue to put up. But they’re not exactly winning here, the deck is too stacked against them. The best historical analogy is probably Finland in 1940, and Russia eventually won there, despite taking massive and humiliating casualties.

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Yeah, the “Nazi” thing puzzles me. If Putin has announced he’s cleaning out the “Nazis”, why are our Republicans and trumpies still so in love with him? Aren’t Nazis a big part of their base, their platform, their constituency??

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What we’ve seen is that the standards in the Russian army are extremely uneven. Some forces, like the airborne troops, are all professional and reasonably effective in a soldier-to-soldier comparison. And some individual units have good commanders who have tried to prepare their troops. But many, many other units – especially those dominated by conscripts – have no tools at all in their toolbox other than “move forward” and “smash that target with artillery”.
The supporting arms (engineering, logistics etc.) have either been bad, or (just as likely) completely absent because of the disorganization of the advance.

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They haven’t realized a rose by any other name is still a rose.

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When everyone below the top man down is playing safe, agreeing with him seems reasonable. Telling the truth, not an easy avenue and still avoid a variety of potential consequences. Some more permanent than others.

It all has the aspect of a single person’s whimsy turned into a demand with magical thinking.

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I’ve seen reports that Russian tactics in cheznya were to missile attack and bomb civilian housing, etc. creating fear and forcing civilians to abandon the cities, followed by military ground forces moving in. Next few days could be brutal, but what happens if the Ukrainians refuse to leave?

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Given that the “Nazi” government of Ukraine is headed by a Jew whose grandparents survived the holocaust, it’s clear that Nazi means anyone Putin doesn’t like and who doesn’t agree with him. Trump and his supporters would love to do the same. Does it matter if it’s denazification or de-antifa-ization?

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CEOitis. This is why the frequent Republican argument that “we need A BUSINESSMAN in the White House” has always rubbed me the wrong way. The CEO can be like a little fascist dictator, nearly unrestrained, and stovepiped only the news he wants to hear. Sorry for the off-topic outburst.

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Feels more like Finland 1939, or London 1940, in terms of a lone underdog standing up to raw military aggression.

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Well then, back when the United States was headed by a black man, did that mean that there were no longer any white supremicists here?

Zero argument. Modern CEOs need a total re-examination in lieu of cult status. I think they have done more harm to the business world than we appreciate. And as the CEO’s people blow sunshine up his rear, he does the same for the investors.

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