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This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://talkingpointsmemo.com/?p=1338959
This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://talkingpointsmemo.com/?p=1338959
The way Red States are flipping Blue, there could end up being only the stack of stupid states running more or less right up the mid-section of the country, and of course, the Derp South…
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This is a horrible idea. It would lead to the “othering” and dehumanization of our fellow countryman.
War would be inevitable, one that Blue America would be hard pressed to win ( distribution of military bases, geographic range, lack of allies).
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Of course, this is already occurring, as you mention. What’s needed, though, is a commitment from those in the blue states to welcome newcomers. Restricting zoning policies in Massachusetts, California, New York, Maryland, and the “blue” areas of many other states deliberately limit population growth, leading to a disjuncture between the most prosperous states and those that are experiencing the fastest rates of population growth.
Dive into “blue” state or municipality, and you will find scores of political leaders who align themselves with the Democratic party, even the left, and yet advocate for exclusionary zoning and related policies. If Democrats want to encourage people to “vote with their feet,” they have to make sure that their communities are welcoming of outsiders.
I have been saying this for several years now. Two is really not enough-four or five more likely. We are simply too big, both geographically and in population, and too fractured ideologically to govern effectively anymore. It’s going to happen, and I for one welcome it. I hope I live to see it.
If you took the Blue States economies / revenue out of the trough that Red States have fed on for decades, the Red States would start out their war in about the same straits the Confederacy was in around late 1864, weak and failing.
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They went to the Bahamas, Canada, and of course, back to England. Loyalists who made the choice early were free to leave.
- You can’t go anywhere on an american passport.
- No one would take those assholes, anyways. Think golgafrincham B ark, with guns.
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It’s a nice dream: stop paying for moral imbeciles in Mississippi to oppress their poor and women. But:
(1) the obvious one: there will be a lot of poor people (and women) in those Red States who will suffer (and won’t be able to move)
But let’s pretend for the moment to write them off …
(2) As someone wrote, Central Pennsylvania is better-named “Pennsyltucky”. People talk about parts of the California Central Valley as “Alabama”. There’s no good reason to think that people living there will not want to break away themselves from the Blue regions/counties. In short, it might be less a “partition at the level of states” than a “war of all against all”: think Bosnia and Kosovo, with their Serbian enclaves.
But let’s imagine that we can effectively manage the partition and keep states as units.
(3) I’m reminded of Partition in India. It was … well, bloody is putting it mildly. Really, really mildly.
Part of me wishes this were possible. But I doubt it is … not without massive bloodshed.
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The author seems to be suggesting that just about anyone has the resources to move from one state to another, as necessary leaving behind homes, spouses, children, ailing relatives, careers, friends, or other such trivialities. Perhaps an easy move for a media executive, but for everyone else?
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One, this is just giving up to the loudest group of Right Wing whiners, which really aren’t THAT large a part of the country. Yes, 40% of the people will vote Trump, but I don’t think that all or even a majority of them will “take up arms” if he loses.
Two, this totally overlooks the “purple” states, which aren’t leaning either red or blue and the states that are “light” red and blue. Demanding these states be forced to choose at this point is throwing them out AND ignoring the fact that most of them don’t have a preference.
Three, this leaves out anyone who doesn’t want to be in whatever “country” gets voted for. This might not be too bad for “red” supporters who stay in “blue” states, but what about minorities who can’t afford to leave a “red” state even if that country announces that people who have too much melanin have no or inferior rights. At the very least you would be creating a refugee situation for the “blue” states.
Four, this is a BIG issue for people like me, who live in a light red state who were public employees. Suddenly any security for our pensions is gone. Heck, Social Security and Medicare will be gone for any state that leaves the union. Again you are talking poverty for millions and again refugee situations for the blue country to decide how to handle.
Look, it’s emotionally compelling to say, just cut them loose, but it’s not that easy and there are more problems in doing that than you are thinking about. Plus, these “militias” and white supremacists are kind of the squeaky wheel. The media pays attention because they are “interesting” and bring in eyeballs. Trump likes them because they fluff his ego and because he is racist, misogynist jerk and they reflect that. But, my guess is that most of the Trump supporters are “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing” and will not mount a rebellion on behalf of Trump.
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Hilarious…NOT. Lucky you who lives in a politically homogeneous family. Think conservatives would really leave New York or Chicago. Almost all cities are blue. In Nebraska, most residents of Omaha and Lincoln would vote to be part of your blue utopia. Without blue state money other than Texas, red state nation would be desperately poor. Don’t joke about something so serious and complicated.
I think that essay is hilarious, because I’m an Unionist.
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I can joke about it, because the writer clearly wrote that essay as a joke.
I’m sorry my laughing offends you though.
The population is already thinking of moving back north from where many parents fled due to winter and raising costs. I know I am thinking about it. I have lived in north, south, central, east, and the west while many cite taxes I have found that there is not a lot of tax differences just methods of collections. Some take it as income, some as sales taxes, other as property, fees, etc all in all in most places I have lived in either large cities or very small towns the net result is within a few hundred dollars at best. Then add climate change and challenges and pops are moving. Just read a study of a northern city with infrastructure built for a population of over 350k of the 1950s and currently supporting under 200k should expect the population within 20/30 years to double. Temps are expected to raise as if the city was 200 miles south, which is inviting.
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We’re not going to have anything like a civil war where the states split for the simple reason that unlike the actual civil war, our differences aren’t sectional, so there’s no border to be drawn. Our differences are partisan and cultural, and come down to rural versus metro. Every state is blue dots in a red sea, no matter how they’re colored on an election night map. I do expect more political violence unfortunately, and I expect it to come from the right, at least disproportionately from the right. The extreme trumpers will either lash out in anger because Trump lost, or they’ll lash out because the take Trump’s win to mean the restraints are off. They would be right about that. I can’t see a continued Trump administration or law enforcement that leans strongly right to do anything about violence coming from the right. The only hope I see is if we have such a blue wave that trumpers despair and decide even violence won’t work.
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Thanks for your comment. We agree: this is a horrible idea. Where we disagree is on the outcome of a hypothetical civil war. As maximus noted, the secessionists would face the same problems they did 160 years ago; specifically, they’d be outnumbered and at a huge economic disadvantage.
And that’s before we take into account the likely results of November’s election, and of the demographic changes already in motion across the country. Biden’s on track to win a resounding popular and electoral college victory. What’s more, it’s likely that by the end of the decade FL, GA, NC, and TX will join VA as reliably “blue” states. Where are the economic and political centers of a “red” America in that scenario?
Who gets the nukes?
The corrupt third world red state country? Because they’re sure going to fight for them.
Wyoming is in the midst of a deepening crisis and we, the people of the United States need to help them. The coal and oil industries are in deep decline resulting in job loss and economic stress. A good way to heal is to find ways to invest in Wyoming to shore up its economy. Green energy (gets pretty windy in parts); transportation/communication hubs; I am sure others have much better ideas. Is it socialism? Maybe, but they need help as do many rural areas. We need to look out for one another. Investments in rural America can help counter the grievance narrative.