Schiff Dismisses Trump’s ‘Absurd’ Claim Of Declassifying Docs

[exspectator]

Schiff is right of course. The standing declassification order is absurd on so many levels. So Trump declassified them and then what? He shared them with others exposing him to liability under the statutes which don’t rely on classification? He continued to keep them secret giving further credence to the fact that they were still national secrets that should have been returned? Did he previously tell the DOJ about his standing declassification order when he returned the first 15 boxes of documents? Why did he return some but not all documents if they were all declassified supposedly allowing him to keep them? He really told other people about his willingness to undermine national security simply so he could take the documents home for work?

It is all so absurd and will surely collapse as an argument in pretty short order.

[coimmigrant]

@zenicetus

Doesn’t even matter if they’re classified or not,

It also doesn’t matter if he delivered, transmitted or communicated any of the national defense information to a third party. That red herring is disposed of in the clear language of 18 US Code 793(e): “Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any . . . information relating to the national defense . . . [and] willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it . . . Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.”

@lestatdelc

@reggid

why did Trump take these documents, and to whom did he show them or give access?

Interesting questions that should be investigated for purposes of national security, but they are not relevant to §793(e).

[dicktater]

Yes the question of classification is a distraction. It doesn’t matter, for purposes of finding him guilty on the 3 statutes named, whether they were classified or not and it is cut-n-dried…if he had them he is guilty. Also he lied about it, tried to pull some fast ones, said he gave back all the stuff but didn’t, etc.

Now as far as degree…why, what, and who could make this 100 times worse. If in the end he is found guilty for possessing (stealing) docs he shouldn’t have - his supporters will have a decent chance at making it seem like he is being unfairly punished (they were just momentos!) and will state a slew of false equivalencies with HRC or Obama. But if there is very good evidence he was USING the info, or trying to sell it, or leverage it…there will be the very distinct advantage for us that nobody can defend him for that.

[leftcoaster]

Response to Patel’s wishful thinking that Trump hand waves are in fact how things are declassified.

Steve Vladeck (steve_vladeck)

[Fellows]

However, the political aspect it is very relevant.

Being purely legalistic with Trump - like Mueller - is to play a loser game. Yes, in pursuit of prosecution be 100% correct, but there absolutely has to be close attention to the public communication aspect - Politics…

Or as this says

@dicktater

Now as far as degree…why, what, and who could make this 100 times worse. If in the end he is found guilty for possessing (stealing) docs he shouldn’t have - his supporters will have a decent chance at making it seem like he is being unfairly punished (they were just momentos!) and will state a slew of false equivalencies with HRC or Obama. But if there is very good evidence he was USING the info, or trying to sell it, or leverage it…there will be the very distinct advantage for us that nobody can defend him for that.

emphasis added.
Exactly. The hard-core QAnonish will never have their addled minds changed, but there is a wider population of Trump-adjacents that may hate Democrats but will not easily stomach this.

However the Adminstration and general Opposition to Trump can’t be fools this time and expect that the combat here is not 75% also political and that somehow law and order in and of itself will sell. The propaganda machine has to be taken head on.

[emiliano4]

@Fellows

The propaganda machine has to be taken head on.

bingo

[brian512]

Adam Schiff knows a thing or two about national security secrets.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/05/us/ex-fbi-agent-sentenced-for-giving-secrets-to-soviets.html

And what you should do with people who sell them.

[dicktater]

I really like that we don’t have to worry about his state of mind.
He RAILED about people taking docs and issued his own fiat that the penalty be upped to 5 years.
This isn’t like his other legal troubles, as many people here have noted, that have a lot of moving parts and complications and nuance.

It doesn’t matter if he is addled, or too stupid to prosecute, or used weasel-mob words so that he can’t be nailed for directly ordering a crime. Classified or not, you can’t have this stuff.

[eggrollian]

As Henry Kissinger approaches his 100th birthday, it is sort of cute that he tries to remain relevant. Just a few months ago, he was advising that Ukraine just give up 20% of its land area.

Henry Kissinger: America is 'on edge of war with Russia and China'

[not_so_fluffy]

The question nobody seems to be asking:

How did the alleged mole know what was in the boxes? If the mole knew and was bothered enough to rat out TDFFG, how many other people had easy enough access to read and possibly disseminate the contents?

This all goes to the magical thinking surrounding TDFFG’s ability to wave his declassification wand and make it alright for him to have them, doesn’t change the facts on the ground that they were sensitive materials not meant for the likes of Joe Mole and others to see AND clearly improperly stored.

Anyone who swallows the declassification bullshit is either an idiot, a fellow traveler, or both.

[serendipitoussomnambulist]

Time to get rid of all laws related to the Espionage Act, Obstruction of Justice, Theft of Government Properties, and Unlawful Behaviors. We need to be in a free country under satan and god’s tyranny not laws made up by Founding Fathers ~2.3 centuries ago. We need a new conservative Constitution that does not have any rules.

[counterlife]

Badly copied tweet from Michael Vario. I disagree about gall or chutzpah. This is terror, and as Josh has pointed out, apparently Trump has no one around him who can even suggest something sensible. He seems to be in free fall, all alone and without a parachute. Good.

[brian512]

@eggrollian

As Henry Kissinger approaches his 100th birthday, it is sort of cute that he tries to remain relevant. Just a few months ago, he was advising that Ukraine just give up 20% of its land area.

“Cute” wouldn’t be my own first choice of words, but suum quique.

[dicktater]

That, at least partly, was Rand Paul’s take. And since most other arguments and excuses are going to fail Chump and his enablers…the route you just outlined will be brought up again.

[pluckyinky]

@zenicetus

This one is very different. Clear and willful refusal to turn over documents important to national security. Doesn’t even matter if they’re classified or not, that’s a red herring. Any jury should be able to convict on the basic evidence

Totally agree. The questions are: whether he in fact possessed the documents? He did. Did he refuse to turn them over after multiple attempts to obtain them? He did that too. This is as closed and shut as a DUI case. Was the defendant driving a vehicle? Yes. Was he intoxicated? Yes to that too. The real question in this case is what was he intending to do with those documents and/or what to did he already do with them.

[iamsmall]

This is a useful summary from Peterr at ‘Emptywheel’;
But to say “it WAS just about the documents” misses the point. These are not attendance sheets at cabinet meetings that were somehow misfiled. These are not scorecards from the EOB v West Wing softball game. These are documents with strong national security implications, and the DOJ sent one of their top national security division folks to Mar-a-Lago in June to tell Trump just that.

Simply possessing these documents without authorization is a big problem.
Storing them in a less-than-secure manner makes that big problem bigger.
Refusing to return them when asked — multiple times — makes that bigger problem even bigger.

And that doesn’t even get into what Trump might or might not have done with them, like show them around to impress guests or try to leverage them in some way to enrich himself, either of which would make things exponentially worse.

So TFG is complicit in: not returning the documents and knowing that they are classified, hence the lock, and holding onto documents that should have never left the secure building in the first place. Next problem; who signed out these documents and knowingly never returned them?

[not_so_fluffy]

I’m continually surprised to hear that that motherfucker is still alive…

[counterlife]

@not_so_fluffy

I’m continually surprised to hear that that motherfucker is still alive…

I am continually pissed off that Henry Kissinger still lives. It’s just not right.

[not_so_fluffy]

Sometimes I think he really does believe that he’s still president…

[lizzymom]

@coimmigrant

… legal scholars such as Sen. Lindsay Graham and Rudy Giuliani who told us “process crimes” are less egregious than other violations of the law.

Well, except when the process involves Hillary, then you betcha it’s egregious — and treasonous.