Discussion:

Discussion for article #241724

“As senator from a rural state, what I can tell Secretary Clinton is that all the shouting in the world is not going to do what I would hope all of us want,”

So gun manufacturer liability legislation is “shouting”…?

6 Likes

Why is it that Sanders always says he doesn’t get his position from polls but when it comes to gun control he keeps pointing to his states polls.

1 Like

Yep. Bernie lost me on that personal attack comment alone. I thought he was above that sort of comment. Very telling and disgusting considering the importance of the topic.

“He went on to argue that it would be necessary to get a consensus of
Americans to support expanding instant background checks, tackling straw
man gun purchases and addressing mental health issues in order to curb
mass shootings.”

Count me in Bernie. Btw: Bernie, my Representative, a Republican has written a bill to keep guns away from people with mental issues. Maybe you could get with Martha McSally (R-AZ) and help get that legislation passed as a 1st step. I’m tried of writing her emails and getting no response back.

Hillary scored some points on this one, no question about it. Overall, of course, Bernie’s record on gun regulation is quite good, so he had plenty of pro- gun control positions to tout. And Bernie was not shy in defending his point of view on the gun manufacturer liability thing and on gun control in general. But I think it’s pretty clear that his vote on gun manufacturer liability was a weak point with this audience, as it probably is with a good-sized majority of Democratic primary voters. I’d say he made the best of a bad situation, as Hillary did on her Iraq vote. Sometimes you just gotta take your lumps.

1 Like

This is where Bernie faltered…badly. And where O’Malley came out strong.

I think O’Malley had a strong night over all, to be honest. I also think that Hillary, Sanders and O’Malley each did well enough, that the Biden talk should be about over now. And O’Malley might be a bigger benefactor of that development then people realized.

His main problem was, that Hillary did extremely well also. He may have swayed a few people away from Sanders on gun control. My guess is he definitely will see a bump in the new polls…but will still be way back in 3rd.

3 Likes

I think this is when Bernie was at his weakest point throughout the debate tonight. He sort of looked like he was on an island out there alone. He is going to have to come up with a better response rather than trying to justify his stance on the simple fact he comes from a very rural state. Weill, let’s say, it struck a chord with this voter!

2 Likes

He played that line at least twice, once on Hillary and once on O’Malley. Both times it came across badly. Overall, this is an extremely weak spot for him, and it showed. He got overly defensive on what is an indefensible position, at least in my mind.

2 Likes

I’m an unabashed Bernie fan, but it does seem a bit rich for Bernie, who does a fair bit of “shouting” himself, to identify this one area where “shouting” is to be avoided, and it just so happens to be the one policy area where he can be flanked on the left. :wink:

Honestly, though, I don’t think the strategy of suing gun manufacturers holds much promise. Such lawsuits were possible before this act was passed, and people were trying, but it was pretty much one court victory after another for the gun manufacturers. I wouldn’t be against letting people continue to try, but in the end, if we really want to stop certain guns, like assault weapons, from being manufactured and sold, we have to ban them, if we want to make it harder for dangerous people to get guns we need to have stricter background checks, close the gun show loophole, and so on.

I agree, O’Malley came off well. But nothing that would add up to a real “breakthrough” for him.

I’m not going to try to predict who may get a bump or dip in the polls, as experience has taught me that I’m not good at making that prediction. But I will go way out on a limb and predict right here and now that neither Lincoln Chafee nor Jim Webb is going to win the Democratic nomination.

Oh, I totally am. Perfect record. Just go back and look at my predictions for the 2014 race for confirmation :stuck_out_tongue: ( I think I got just about every one wrong).

But I do think O’Malley receives a bump. Maybe not right away, but the “Biden” crowd will start drifting towards him and Hillary, so his numbers will rise on that alone.

Otherwise, I agree, he didn’t have a real “break out” performance, mostly because nobody else did horribly. But if you pulled Hillary off that stage, I wouldn’t have any problem voting for him.

1 Like

I think the scenario of a fair number of potential Biden voters drifting O’Malley’s way sounds quite plausible (assuming Biden doesn’t run of course).

Basically I agree that Hillary, Bernie and Martin all did well enough. Nobody fucked up and said something really stupid or embarrassing. They all scored some points, and Bernie and Martin did a decent job of introducing themselves to voters who didn’t know much about them, while Hillary did a decent job of re-introducing herself. Jim Webb came across as a “strong leader” type, but his policy positions are just too different from the Democratic base on too many issues. Lincoln Chafee just did not come across as Presidential material, at least not to me.

2 Likes

Just read Josh Marshall’s take on the debate here:

Oddly, O’Malley is the one candidate he doesn’t even mention.

Nobody in the after coverage is mentioning him, either.

Which is his biggest problem. He gets zero coverage in the press. I am kind of surprised by what I have seen so far, I thought at least he would be mentioned, but its like he wasn’t even on the stage.

I wont go so far as to say the fix is in, but the media has clearly locked into the story it wants, with just slight variations depending on their personal feelings about Hillary. Its either, Hillary clearly won, or Hillary did ok, but so did Sanders. And oh yeah, Chafee and Webb are gone. His absence from those discussions is a rather large donkey in the room at the moment.

It’s the old “if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make a sound” problem. Can be deadly for candidates.

1 Like

Class action suits against gun manufacturers could have have positive results in how guns are marketed to young children as “my first Cricket gun”, to women as a color-coordinated accessory, to men as a blaster of swarthy threats, etc. It could force manufacturers to make guns less accident-prone and to include a registered owner recognition device that prevents unauthorized firing. And years of class-action suits may sway public opinion about guns as it did about smoking.

1 Like

Ran across this interesting tidbit over on the Atlantic’s live blog of the debate:

9:22 p.m.: Here’s another Hillary Clinton quote from 2008 that would seem to cut against criticizing a politician from a state like Vermont on gun control: "What I favor is what works in New York. You know, we have a set of rules in New York City and we have a totally different set of rules in the rest of the state. What might work in New York City is certainly not going to work in Montana. So, for the federal government to be having any kind of, you know, blanket rules that they’re going to try to impose, I think doesn’t make sense.”

Gosh, that sounds an awful lot like what Bernie has been saying about needing to understand and deal realistically with the difference between the role guns play in rural areas, and urban areas. In fact she went farther, basically saying that there shouldn’t be any “blanket” Federal rules that apply to both.

3 Likes

I think, though, 2015 is a different landscape in relation to guns. It’s a different environment and what must/should/can be done today is far different. Part of Bernie’s problem on this issue is he hasn’t bothered to really think through how his gun policies are relevant to this environment.

To me, he seems hesitant and unprepared on the gun issue and I’m not sure how that’s possible in today’s environment.

I think Bernie’s point is that although guns pretty much only have one purpose, it’s still the fault of the owner if they use it in the wrong way or leave it where someone else can get hurt by it. Where I can see the manufacturer’s libel is that they are not pushing the industry to make their products with more safety features and a pushing/paying government to also not force them to make them safer. But if we do then we should also hold car manufacturers for not making safety belts or airbags until they were forced to by the government or if they tried to influence government not to force safety issues.