Discussion for article #236663
It is both illegal and against standard police protocol to shoot someone for running away. There are standards for âreasonable forceâ in making an arrest âŚand it seems very, very unlikely that they were met here. If we shot people for trying to get away with shoplifting, the hospitals would run over and we would run out of suburban teenage girls and boys in less than a decade. OKâŚthatâs a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much.
What in the hell is law enforcement coming to in this country?
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This is the whole question that needs to be addressedâŚat what point is deadly force really needed? Anything short of a gun versus gun should be the standard. Killing someone who has no gun but just a skateboard, bottle of Snapple or a bag of skittles is not cause for killing. What suprises me is how cowardly law enforcement is these days.
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Itâs so telling that when Joseph Houseman, a 63-year-old âOpen Carryâ advocate, just last year prompted multiple calls to 911 when he stood in front of a Kalamazoo Dairy Queen with a loaded rifle and shouted bizarre ranting threats and obscenities at traffic and passersby in broad daylight for more than 40 minutes, the police were able to apprehend him without firing a shot.
When police responded to the scene, they found Houseman wearing what
appeared to be pajama pants and carrying a rifle. When they tried to
talk to him, Houseman gave the middle finger to the officers, grabbed
his crotch and shouted about revolution, according to video of the
incident obtained by the Kalamazoo Gazette and placed online at MLive.com.
Is there ANY doubt what would have happened if Houseman had been African American?
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Video at noon?
The incident is murky. They were not shot for stealing beer.
They threw the beer they were stealing at store employees who tried to stop them. That means bottles or cans weighing about a pound each. I donât want to be hit by something like that, thrown by a person with any athletic ability at all. So, that crime is not stealing beer. That crime is stealing beer, and Assault.
If the officer was then assaulted by two men using skateboards as clubs, I can see how he would feel threatened. If he goes down, they take his gun. Maybe they go back for their beer, as well? Not only the officer, but other people in the area could be at risk if these already violent individuals get a gun in their hand.
Perhaps we should simply let people walk out of stores with items in order to avoid confrontations which they might escalate into something that merits use of deadly force.
But I think we should seriously consider the implications of such a policy. I think a lot of us might not be enthusiastic about the results if such behavior became the norm in our local areas.
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When do people accept responsibility for their actions?
People being those stealing the beer. I mean, should anyone ever get shot over stealing beer? Hell no.
Should those stealing beer be aware of the risks, especially given how much police shootings have been in the news, yes.
It also appears he stood in one spot and didnt run / throw beer cans at those trying to stop them
It also appears he stood in one spot and didnt run
UmmmHummm! And so did Tamir Rice, a 12 year old African American kid with a toy gun. He was shot dead a couple of seconds after police responded to 911 calls last Nov. 12th. No one circled him off, stopped traffic and spent 40 minutes trying to persuade him to drop his âweapon.â Further, neither Loehmann, who shot the kid, nor Garmback could even be bothered to administer any first aid to Rice after the shooting. That was left to an FBI agent who arrived on the scene later.
[Officers claimed they told Rice to put his hands up and he didnât comply.
In the video, the police car comes to a stop at 0:19, and by 0:21
the boy is already doubled over and falling to the ground, mortally
wounded and dying. Rice was rushed to the hospital, where he died.
The officers later found that the gun was an Airsoft gun, which are air gun replicas of real guns and can shoot non-lethal plastic, ceramic, or metallic pellets,
which had had its orange safety tip removed. Deputy Chief Tomba stated
that Rice did not threaten or point the toy gun at Loehmann and
Garmback.]
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Youâve got to be kidding me. A skateboard is a âdeadly weaponâ?!? Fucking insane.
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âHe worked previously as an Army police officer, the chief said.â
That may be part of the problem, he, like too many police officers, has a military attitude where everything is framed within a combat-with-the-enemy mode.
Our local police motto is TLC: trust, loyalty, and commitment. That used to be true but now I no longer trust them and as far as I can see, for most of them the only loyalty and commitment they have is toward each other, not toward the people paying their salary. I fear this is true for many police around the country.
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Maybe the government could either create jobs for young men or prevent the 1% from off shoring jobs to China and Mexico and other slave labor countries with tariffs. Maybe we could provide minorities with a quality education instead of what they get now. Maybe we could stop the War on Drugs and spend the billions of dollars on that education.
Shooting young men who are unarmed is an act of cowardice. Note: I live in Washington State.
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Some of the comments on here are so unreal.
Um⌠yeah, you can wield a skateboard in a deadly manner! obviously itâs not designed that way, but can you bust open a copâs skull? Yes. Did he try? Thatâs what the investigation is for! Did the officer shoot while he was running away? Also why you wait for the investigation.
Sure, I would agree that depending on the facts this guy could have resorted to a tazer, club, hand to hand defense techniques before his gun. But the idea that cops could only use their guns if a criminal also has a gun is ridiculous.
Iâm disgusted by some of the police killings lately, but maybe we should all calm down and not rush to judgment until the facts are out there.
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The skateboards I see the kids riding are definitely substantial enough to cause significant injury. A blow to the head with the edge of a hard, wood board or wheel truck could potentially kill. Sounds like the shooting may have been justified. But with so many clearly unjustified police shootings of unarmed Black men occurring on a regular basis, every such incident will be investigated by all parties for the foreseeable future.
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When I was an ADA in Brownwood, a couple college kids stole a 24-pack of beer from a convenience store while I was there. The clerk, as per policy, did nothing to try to stop them. Itâs the policy in many, if not most, stores.
So you would say little grandma isnât justified shooting an unarmed 6â5", 250-300 lbs individual who threatens physical harm if she doesnât give up her purse because he/she doesnât have a gun? I donât know the circumstances of this shooting and reserve judgement for when more details will be available, but does a cop really have to be beaten up to a pulp with skateboards, if this is what really happened, before he can use deadly force?
I believe anyone who doesnât break the law and is attacked by anyone, armed or unarmed, has the right to defend him/her self how he/she sees it fit. We have the undeniable right to get back home unscathed and those who donât want to get shot better think twice before attacking other people, with or without weapons.
Agreed. With all we have seen, though, I empathize the emotion behind it.
Olympia really appears to be trying to do the right thing in the immediate aftermath. Take a look at the page the city set up to keep the community informed about the matter: http://olympiawa.gov/city-services/police-department/news-and-notifications/officer-involved-shooting.aspx
I think the protests immediately afterward are important, even if available information is very limited, because it lets officials know that the community needs and expects a proper investigation and needs and expects law enforcement to do what is necessary to minimize needless shootings or racially biased policing. The protestors donât have to be right in their assumptions of facts, but will be most constructive if they are demanding the right things.
Barring forensic evidence that clearly contradicts the officerâs report, this will be ruled a justified use of deadly force. The law leans in the officerâs favor, and a jury likely would lean still more. Per the local county prosecutor, "a Washington state statute says officers cannot be prosecuted for use of force if they acted in âgood faith and without malice.ââ
The most important issue is not the legality of the shooting, but the necessity. Was shooting the best option at that moment? Were there actions and decisions by the officer or other police earlier in the call that unnecessarily led to the use of deadly force? Was race a factor in any actions and decisions? Does the department need different procedures/protocols/training to drive down the unnecessary use of deadly force?
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Lots of doubts:
I would bet it is the policy in all corporate chains of stores, and that their insurance carriers would demand such a policy if the company didnât already have it.
Some stores have loss-prevention personnel who look and act like shoppers, but they typically will be limited to putting a hand on (not grasping) a suspected shoplifter, asking them questions about items they have, and asking them to come to the office. They do not detain or pursue.
Only to a troll or an idiot.