Discussion for article #231141
One thing I learned from the two women I know personally whoâve told me theyâd had an abortion is that the experience was punishment enough. Between their internal guilt, external shaming, religious drama from their families, ridiculous hoops they had to jump through and the deterioration of their relationships with their boyfriends, I just donât think the government has any more punishment to add.
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Iâm sure itâs no picnic, but I have to wonder how much of any guilt and self-examination is caused directly and indirectly by the ubiquity of anti-choice religious mumbo-jumbo as promulgated by fundies such as the Church and the jerks in the article protesting a holiday party. If we lived in a society where women were secure in the knowledge that they were in control of their own bodies, and that no one else claimed that control, Iâd have to imagine that the decision to have an abortion or not could be approached in much less fraught way, with less post-op trauma, so to speak.
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It seems to me that in the past 40 years weâve gone backwards on this subjectâŚwhich is the direction âconservativesâ drag everything.
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The three women I know closely whoâve had abortions: no huge deal, mostly because they were in family/life situations where they didnât have to answer to some authoritarian head-of-family or culture. No fun at all, but in line with so many of things about life and having a body that are no fun at all. Guilt and shame didnât really come into it.
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Thatâs my (second hand) experience as well.
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True believers have no room for doubt. They are already convinced they have all the answers, absolutely. The idea that the world presents a myriad of indefinite possibilities, potentials, and outcomes, with infinite shades of meaning, is lost on them. Expect no pragmatic problem solving, and no support for alternatives. Their way is the only way. Nothing will induce them to change their minds. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. It is living death, incapable of relating to the complexity of existence.
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A number of years back I unfortunately ended up with an office an a building that also included a âWomenâs Centerâ. Having to go through the weekly protest lines I learned that the folks that were protesting were some really sick vile people in general, they wanted to take away more then some womenâs right to choose . . . . . .
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I am proud of your two friends. The risk of bad outcomes â call it punishment if you wish â that would have been faced by the two unwanted children who could have been produced by those pregnancies far exceeds what the two women faced. They made the right decision. No child should have to face that reality that their biological mother did not want to bear them and was forced to do so.
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âitâs a shame that they couldnât cease with the rhetoric and have an actual conversationâ
Funny you should mention that, because THAT is what itâs all about. Shaming. Thatâs all they seek and hope to achieve by standing outside clinics. They seek to shame people. Why? Because if Iâm shaming you, it means Iâm better than you, superior to you, more virtuous and deserving and enlightened than you. Itâs their roundabout way of affirming their fervent belief in their exalted place in the make-believe heirarchy of the righteous.
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More donations for the clinic! Yay closed-minded protesters!
Thanks for a nice feel-good story this holiday, TPM.
And thanks to the author for the work she is doing to help preserve reproductive choice in this country.
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I agree. My only response is to say that I the amount I had decided to donate had been doubled by seeing their demonstration, and the pain and hate their groups have projected into the lives of women they donât know and never will.
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Just wondering if you observed a phenomenon that has struck me over the years. It seems that the most virulent of the anti-choice people, including the clinic bombers, doctor murderers, and sidewalk screamers, are almost all men. That tells me that itâs not about âthe sanctity of lifeâ at all, but is really about men who need to control women.
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Feminists for life need to be kicked in the nuts. Morans.
When my daughters were very young, many years ago (they were pre-school age, 3 and 5 years old I believe), we were walking down a sidewalk when a pro-life protester in front of a womenâs health clinic âfelt his morals impelled himâ to shove âfull-color posters of what purported to be aborted fetal remainsâ in front of me AND my two little girls and their mother. Needless to say, it frightened them. I had their mother take the girls further down the street out of earshot. Needless to say, this despicable protester was not interested in a civilized discussion about the issue. I took the opportunity to lambast him for using the issue to terrorize young children and their mother. And also to terrorize the women seeking treatment at the clinic regardless of whether or not pregnancy or abortion was involved. This is the problem with these pro-choice terrorists. They are no better than Al Qaeda. Religious zealots. Nothing more. BTW, this incident was not recent. My daughters are 33 and 31 now.
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Twenty years ago I had a software developer who was working for me complain that his office mate had turned her desk into a shrine for anti-abortion propaganda. When I checked it out, the walls around her desk were covered with pictures of purportedly aborted foetusâs. There wasnât and inch of bare wall in the space. I told her this was inappropriate in a professional environment, and she got angry and told me I was violating her freedom of speech. I told her she was shouting fire in a crowded theater with this stuff, and besides, it was private property and I had to protect the rights of ALL employees to be FREE of her willingness to agitate. She got furious with me, and I told her she was threatening our relationship, and all the stuff had to go or else she would have to go. She went to HR and to the CEO to complain I was interfering with her civil rightsâbut they backed me up and said they had no idea what sheâd been up to and had to remove the offensive material immediately. She did, but then became the sulkiest, most petulant member of the team, who never spoke unless asked a question about a professional matter. I recommended termination, but HR opposed itâthey feared anti-abortion protesters assembling a gauntlet on the front lawn. Some of these folks have some deep, deep psychological issues. This one cause consumes their whole lives. Itâs a form of sickness.
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My wife and I were walking in Philly and passed a Planned Parenthood that had a few anti-abortion protesters outside. We responded by going inside and donating to that center, even though we regularly donate to the national organization as well. As we left we told the demonstrators that we donated because of them. No discussion was possible with these fanatics but the donation seemed like an ideal response. I hope more people do it.
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My uncle, an early member of the John Birch Society, was an adamant âpro-lifer.â He drove a van plastered with photos of aborted fetuses (the bloody variety) which I dubbed his âabortionmobile.â For a time he volunteered as a crossing guard at the local elementary/middle school (his 10 kids all went to Catholic schools K-12). He parked his abortionmobile directly across the street where all the crossing children were forced to see it every day. Eventually enough parents complained that he had to park it elsewhere, but he didnât acquiesce without a fight. I wonder how many children became dedicated pro-choicers as a direct result of his crude proselytizing?
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When I see protesters carrying pictures purporting to be aborted fetuses, it completely closes me to anything they have to say. Iâm pro choice, but I would be willing to listen or discuss the issue with what I consider reasonable protesters. Thereâs a gynecology clinic next to my eye doctor, and last time I was there, the protest signs were fairly disgusting. This clinic is next to a grocery store and other merchants, and in the same block as two schools, several churches, and a day care. My first thought when I saw the protest signs was to pity parents driving by and having to respond to the questions of their children.
I donât want to see photos of anything to do with a medical procedure in public. If you want to engage people in civil discourse, you donât start the process with an unpleasant bloody photo. If my first impression of you is that you donât care about the sensibilities of those around you, I can save a lot of time by giving you exactly the respect you deserve. None.
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Many of us believe that there is no reason that any punishment should be attached at all.
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