Discussion: WATCH: Bill Maher And Ben Affleck Tear Into Each Other Over Islam

@LBS: We went to war against the nazis and communists because of what they did and what they represented. My fear is that DASH, al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, al Shabab, Taliban, Khorasan, Lashkar el Taeba etc. are simply symptoms and not the cause. If we are not careful, smart and determined in eradicating the leaders, the criminals, the funding sources and the ideology we will all be destroyed and part of the caliphate.

I know organized christianity wants you to believe that Hitler was an atheist. That is a bunch of self-serving baloney. Hitler was raised catholic and went to a catholic monastery. He wanted to be a priest at one point. I am not blaming the church for that. Simply stating the facts. The catholic church disowned him after he died.

Essentially Maher and Harris are arguing that Islam must be opposed as anti-liberal. Bottom line is if we buy Harris and Maher we should be prepared to fight a religious war with the Muslim world. Personally I am not prepared to kill a billion and 1/2 people. Are you? .

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I’m not arguing about policy; I’m making a statement about how we derive policy. Policy based on bigotry is wrongheaded and stupid.

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The only socially-acceptable bigotry is against Muslims.

Criticizing ā€œIslamā€ or ā€œMuslimsā€ is, at best, stereotyping. Islam is not a hierarchical faith, like Catholicism. It’s much more like Judaism (one of a number of ways the two are alike), int hat anyone can have his/her strain of Islam. There are movements within Islam, but no one of them can speak for the others. So talking about ā€œMuslimsā€ is usually some form of bigotry.

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@Opinionate1: There is no evidence that algebra was exclusively developed by islamic scholars or was the direct consequence of belief in islam. Mo al Khwarzimi who is erroneously given credit for supposedly ā€œinventingā€ algebra did not actually invent algebra even if that were possible. Babylonian and Hindu mathematicians solved many types of algebraic problems including quadratic equations. Mo al Khwarzimi definitely made good contributions to algebra.

The islam practiced by the folks who supposedly invented algebra does not represent the islam of today and by no means condones the genocidal murders by DASH, al-Qaeda, Boko haram, Taliban, al Shabab, Laskar el Taiba. Inventing algebra is not a license for killing innocent children, women and men hundreds of years later.

Today’s Islamic mullahs just memorize the koran by rote and are brainwashed in madrassas. They do not do any research or critical thinking even at a level that might make al Khwarzimi proud.

Incidentally, the zero and the numbering system was invented by the Hindus and used by the Arabs in 500 CE many years before Muhammad was born. Islam has zero, zilch, nada to do with it.

That nails it. They see through a very thin, one way lens and do not want to look back. Maher is very self-righteous and egotistical. He comes off as, I said it- I’m always right and I’m not considering other points of view. The other guy may have come around if he was able to finish his point and then debate others.

The intelligence comment at the end of your comment I don’t agree with so much. They are all intelligent, although I never heard Michael Steele take a chance and get his self in the scrum. Not letting intelligence overrun your humanity, that’s the key.

@LBS: On that I completely agree with you. Bigotry, prejudice, hatred based on religion should never be the basis for policy. 21st century terrorism is a complex problem that requires careful thinking. There is no place for neoconservative George Bush cowboy thinking.

Harris is a cunning bigot who appeals to educated people’s narcissism. He is completely creepy in how he frames and reframes his bigotry in real time. I like Maher, but he goes to the pitcher of kook-aid a little too quickly on this subject which looks like un-self-critical bigotry. But I can forgive that, I guess. He has his deeply imbibed biases too, like most. However, Harris is just vile.

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Thanks for your comment. I didn’t mean to come off as anti-intellectual, though I suppose I may have. I like intellectuals. Bill Maher strikes me as smug – a person who uses his intellect and wit as a weapon to suit his own egotistical needs. But then, I just don’t like him and am angry at him for what he said.

He might not like me either.

Anyway, you are right to defend intellectuals. Sorry if some kind of strange insecurity on my part made its way into my words.

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Well I’m down with just about everything you said except getting drunk with O’Reilly. And I don’t think Bill Maher is the real culprit. Harris is. I’ve read his books and watched his videos. It’s skillfull propaganda, and not so different from what was purveyed in the 1930s in Germany against Jews. That was wrong and this is wrong.

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I didn’t get that you were disparaging intellect or intellectuals, I did think that you were excluding the rest of the group beside Affleck. They are all actually pretty bright people.

Maher does the vey same thing to me and I have the same reactions.
I mentioned Michael Steele because he also rubs me the wrong way and I’m not surprised at all that he couldn’t hang with that crowd. Chris Matthews lets him flap until I have to fast forward past him.

I thought that your first comment was excellent and just reread it and still do. I only nitpicked that intelligence thing. So 99% great.

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The ā€œrootā€ is the oppression and destruction of vast numbers of people for oil, Israel’s expansionism and vaguely defined strategic objectives. Why doesn’t Harris ever criticize the greater sources of destabilization and terror? Because he’s on a mission. He’s not an honest broker. I prefer atheists like Noam Chomsky. Chomsky tells the truth.

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Dumb and dumber and then even dumber and dumberer? Who cares?

Precisely! I was wondering if anyone else noticed the slight of hand Harris used in making that statement. Kristof dutifully bobs his head demonstrating that he’s not so quick on the uptake. But that framing, of more than a billion people by pinning them all to the center of extremism with ISIS and Wahhabism, is dishonest and a perfect example of why Harris can only be described as a propagandist. Certainly not a scientist.

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Oh yes. Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin. They were leaders in the mid twentieth century.

Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Christians = No Problem
Hindus living with Jews = No Problem
Christians living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem
Confusians living with Baha’is = No Problem
Baha’is living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem
Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Baha’is = No Problem
Baha’is living with Christians = No Problem
Christians living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem
Confusians living with Hindus = No Problem

Muslims living with Hindus = Problem
Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem
Muslims living with Christians = Problem
Muslims living with Jews = Problem
Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem
Muslims living with Baha’is = Problem
Muslims living with Shintos = Problem
Muslims living with Atheists = Problem
MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG BIG PROBLEM!

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Ben’s pretty clever. The talking heads at FOX News are going to give lots of free media to Gone Girl in the coming days.

It’s hard to know where to start with the idiocy posted here. If you were to ignore the endless pogroms by Christians against pretty much every other religion that wandered into their sphere (especially Jews), along with the internal fighting between the Catholics, protestants, and orthodox, I suppose you could say that they’re ā€˜tolerant’ of others and live together in ā€˜peace’.

Similar stories of ā€˜tolerance’ can be told of Hindus and Buddhists, along with most religions when they mix. When God tells you that you’re the chosen ones and the others are apostates, it doesn’t matter who you are or what you believe, friction results…it’s true even today in the US.

But tolerance has existed, and Islam is not an fringe player.

In fact, for most of its history, it was Islam that had the reputation for inclusion, not the Christians.

Christianity has neutered itself with the opiate of prosperity, which Sam Harris acknowledges in his book. Islam has political and economic strife, so the religious antagonism comes to fore. (Those with no chance for a prosperous ā€˜this life’, and nothing to lose, can become the apocalyptic warriors of tomorrow)

And you just conveniently fail to mention Indonesia, which is the largest Islamic country in the world. It is currently on a good run of democratically elected secular governments and doesn’t have a serious problem with terrorism when compared with nearby India.

With all of that said, I agree with Sam Harris on one point. 99.999% of all religious people may be good, moral, and tolerant, with only the best of intentions. But on a planet of 7 billion, that still leaves 70000 fundamentalist nutcases willing to blow up the entire works to gain ā€˜reward in heaven’. As our numbers and technological might increase, the chances one of those nutcases will kill us all in some religious stupor goes up as well.

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What? There wasn’t a separation of church and state in a major world government until the establishment of the United States. Prior to that religion played a role in just about every single government in world history. Separation of church and state is an 18th century Enlightenment concept. There were centuries of Christianity before that. The separation clause of the first amendment is one of the greatest governmental concepts in the history of the world and one most countries don’t have to this day.

Christianity has had to adapt to this ever-growing secularism. Islam is as compatible with this concept as Christianity has shown to be. The problem is that in the Middle East the entire concept of republican democracy hasn’t really taken root. It’s not a deep-seeded part of their culture. They will eventually reach the enlightenment much of Christianity did a few centuries ago. The vast majority of Muslims living in the West don’t have any problems accepting the concepts of personal freedom. Their problems tend to lie in the fact that they’re marginalized and harassed by a public that’s afraid of them for being different.

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I would have thought Ben Affleck smarter than to have appeared on Bill Maher’s show. Affleck is passionate. I’m passionate, too and Maher’s show is a dangerous place for passionate people. Were I so foolish as to appear on Maher’s show I would probably not be able to refrain from pouncing on him and tearing out what’s left of that pitiful head of hair the moment he opened his rude, smug, arrogant and bigoted mouth. Best to leave him to the cool, calm and collected individuals.

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