Discussion for article #239280
The worst part of that flag is it does not instantly remind Americans how irrational the Vietnam War was.
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The MIA flag was always a pro-war symbol, and most of the fact-based world knew it. But it became so widely used that it was pointless to argue about it. You couldn’t convince anyone to take it down anyway. 40 years on, it continues to fly at every major league sports venue, at post offices, police stations, VFW halls, Knights of Columbus buildings, and thousands of other places. Yes, it’s exactly like worshipping the Lost Cause of the confederacy–an evil lie. Thank you, Perlstein, for highlighting this stain on American pop culture.
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This flag is a show of support for our servicmen who, in service for their countrymen, were captured and are being held. The military dehumanizes the enemy out of necessity. It has nothing to do with racism. Soldiers are human, and killing another human is one of the most difficult things there is.There are no politically correct wars. This article is offensive.
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Fathers of my classmates were held POW and repatriated, brothers of my classmates were killed in Vietnam. They were not war criminals as your article subtly implies. The war was wrong and wrong minded. No doubt that Nixon coopted something that started out with wholesome intentions. However, I went to graduate school with several former Vietnam POWs. They were not bitter over their experience. I hardly see how you can be so bitter about it. The comparison with the confederate battle flag is a shark-jump.
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No. Lying about what actually happened is truly offensive. It is an attempt to evade responsibility and it can lead to more lying and more war.
Prime examples are (1) the German myth of the “dolchschluss” the “stab in the back” that claimed Germany was winning WWI and was betrayed by Jews and Communists at home. That lie was the seed of a much bigger and more destructive war. (2) The present and growing lie that we “won” in Iraq and that it was Obama who threw away the victory by withdrawing, when the Status of Forces agreement that required the withdrawal was negotiated and agreed to by the Bush crowd. Of course, the lies about that war are still sprouting like poisoned mushrooms after a rain: that Saddam’s (non-existent) WMD were spirited to Syria (or Fredonia), that Al Qaeda, a group of religious fanatics, and Saddam an amoral monster whose model was the very atheistic Stalin were conspiring together, (in fact most of the 9-11 bombers were Saudis) that the war would pay for itself (one of the worst jokes of all time), that removing the major counter-weight to Iran would somehow stabilize the ME. Those lies are being used to gin up another bigger and more destructive war, this time against Iran, which would no doubt sprout its own crop of pernicious lies.
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You forgot the rest; The military dehumanizes the enemy out of necessity in order to perpetuate “the lie”. Unless invasion on home soil actually occurs, every military action involving death is a lie.
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Add pathetic to that. Basically click bait.
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Only to someone who preconditions their thoughts to arrive at that particular conclusion.
Those participating in Vietnam were not war criminals, anymore than a German soldier in the early 40’s. They were not the ones putting people in tiger cages or tossing them out flying helicopters to “influence” other prisoners to “talk”. Or, waterboarding KSM three times a day for a month.
Hanging the war leadership would tend to bring accountability to our foreign operations. Start with our most recent “leadership”, Cheney/Bush, the opportunists who brought us, ISIS.
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Yes, click bait from an author who knows stupid sells. The war was indeed wrong, but so is this other extreme of making this some kind of racial issue.
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I cringe every time I see the pow/mia flag. Aside from its dubious origins in the Vietnam War, its poorly drawn literal imagery of a guard tower and bowed head sends a confusing message at best. Who is the flag referring to at this point? I have always seen it as a right wing symbol of generalized grievance.
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The whole POW/MIA thing has been an exercise in manipulation from the beginning. I worked in SE Asia for many years and was based in Thailand for several of them. That experience confirmed what I had always suspected—the jungle tends to consume things and quickly decay, including dead bodies. Moreover, given the poor morale and the general chaos of the era, I’ve always suspected that at least some MIAs were really AWOLs who found their way to marginal, semi-legal existences in Bangkok and either re-established themselves there or went onward to Australia or any number of other places.John McCain’s career as a flyer also suggests that not every POW was a “hero”; some were just inept.
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I am frankly astonished at some of the reactions to this article: Apparently many Americans are still caught up in the right-wing psychodrama that was the American War in Vietnam. I have lived & worked in Vietnam for many years (and before that I opposed the war while it was being fought). Perlstein’s article is factually accurate and his conclusions entirely justified. The soldiers who fought the war were not war criminals, but the politicians and military commanders who planned and carried out the American War in Vietnam certainly were–Robert McNamara as much as admitted this before his death. The POW/MIA flag is a racist abomination.
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Killing in war is murder, not service. Dehumanizing the enemy to making murdering them easier is sociopathy. Valorizing those who got caught while murdering millions of women and children in just psychotic. Whether it’s also racist – well the war itself was obviously racist, as are most American wars … but it’s certainly subhuman and horrifying at all kinds of levels. We should feel deep shame, not injured pride and self-righteous blaming of others.
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During WWII, POWs were held in great contempt by troops, because most of the time, you got captured because you were an idiot. McCain got captured, I have heard, due to stupidity - he dropped his load, and then returned to view the result (against orders), at which time he was downed.
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Mostly I agree with you. However, My Lai and the other situations like that did happen, and these were war crimes, committed by American troops. Every war has atrocities committed by every side. To deny that American troops occasionally committed war crimes is to ignore the many facts about the war we have available.
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Can we stop singing God Bless America during the 7th inning stretch at baseball games too? That was a post-9/11 innovation, ramming the right-wingiest of the third-rate faux national anthems down the throat of a grieving nation, and elevating it to a stand-up hats-off patriotic ritual. And like the Rebel flag and the POW/MIA flag, once it goes up it stays up, everyone forgets it wasn’t always there, and removing it becomes shocking and inconceivable to the sanctimonious pricks who put it there in the first place. Take Me Out To The Ball Game is the ONLY anthem that has any place in the 7th inning stretch dammit.
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The flag in the photograph doesn’t seem to have it, but in the 70s I recall seeing a coolie hat on the figure in the guard tower.
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This.
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From Wikipedia:
“This Land Is Your Land” is one of the United States’ most famous folk songs. Its lyrics were written by American folk singer Woody Guthrie in 1940 based on an existing melody, in critical response to Irving Berlin’s “God Bless America”, which Guthrie considered unrealistic and complacent. Tired of hearing Kate Smith sing it on the radio, he wrote a response originally called “God Blessed America”.
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