Discussion for article #236676
What does this mean? What does “say” mean? The word “abortion” isn’t in the Constitution. Does that mean it does not “say” something about the overall topic in various respects when we apply various terms? That is how people – who come to various places when doing so – apply the Bible in a way that seems to involve something relevant – something “saying” something about it – on this topic and others.
When we, as a society, get into an argument about an item like abortion, the argument is rarely about the thing itself. It is about a variety of topics that are crystallized by that issue. In this case, (1) technology and an increasing awareness that the word “life” was getting more difficult to pin down, (2) women’s rights, specifically women’s control of fertility, (3) the social implications of the disconnect between sexual identity, activity, and reproduction. All of these issues, especially women’s rights are important, but none of them (except women’s rights, and here in a very negative way) are mentioned in the bible. So textual analysis is worthless. What is tried next is to interpret the ‘meaning’ of various themes. This article poits out that, in fact, the Bible has a fairly liberal attitude towards abortion (at least in the early stages) and certainly does not view it as ‘murder’ in the traditional sense of the word. But people go way beyond that point and point to all sorts of nonsense to prove this point or that. It would be wise to remain humble.
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Actually, the Bible does mention abortion, in fact, if a man suspects his wife has cheated on him, there is a Harry Potter-ish test to see if the child was conceived by the husband or through adultery.
The priest makes a potion, the woman drinks it, and if the child is legitimate, she will bear the child, but if not, she will miscarry.
Having been raised a Catholic (though it never “took”), I know that many people believe beyond question that God has created a soul already and is just waiting for the vessel to place it in. If you abort even a blastomere, you have left that soul stranded. However, these people don’t seem to have thought this through. 30-50% of all pregnancies result in spontaneous abortion – where did the soul go? When the blastomere splits into two pieces, creating identical twins, where does the other soul come from, and was one soul occupying the blastomere until the point it split, then the other soul, in the on-deck circle, jumps into its half? And what about the case where there are two blastomeres that fuse, resulting in a chimera (the child has some cells from egg+sperm#1 and some cells from egg+sperm#2)?
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In addition, Exodus 21:22 states that causing the death of a fetus by violence is a lesser crime than murder, which clearly indicates that fetuses were not considered equivalent to persons as the anti-abortion movement claims.
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The Bible may not mention abortion by name, but it clearly illustrates that the alleged God advocates child murder, infanticide, child abuse and abortion:
http://www.evilbible.com/god's%20not%20pro-life.htm
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Pro-lifers encourage child abuse…
How many unwanted children end up in potentially abusive households?
You’ll never see prolifers waving Morgue shots of horribly abused/neglected children.
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Talmudic Law states very clearly that: “The Soul does not enter the body until the first breath is drawn.”
Therefor, under Orthodox Jewish Law (you call it the “Old Testament”) abortion is not murder, and it is not illegal, nor is it even immoral.
These damn bible-thumpers only exist here in the USA because they were kicked out of every law abiding country in the world FIRST and came to “The Colonies” because that was how you got rid of the loonies back then.
The Pilgrims? Kicked out of England, Kicked out of Holland. Came to America and promptly killed the Indians who kept them from starving, then with no one else to persecute, started burning each other at the stake as “Witches”.
It’s all because as one Englishman said about the Puritans: “They toss and turn and can’t sleep at night because they know that someone, somewhere, is having a good time.”
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In my opinion, the best biblical example of how to deal with an unplanned pregnancy is the story of David and Bathsheba.
King David has an affair with Bathsheba, gets her pregnant, and sends her husband off to die in battle. So God gets angry. But instead of punishing David, what does He do? HE KILLS THE BABY! And David writes a song of thanks to God.
So, pro-lifers, try to reconcile that with your “Choose Life” license plates.
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“God H8s Fetuses!”
No, that says that if the baby is premature but healthy, then the husband can demand reasonable payment. The very next verse is
http://biblehub.com/exodus/21-23.htm
Picking one of the translations, “But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life,”
It seems the Reverend has taken the bait. Anyone that thinks a GOP’er is motivated by faith is either horribly gullible or obtuse to the point of being blind. They don’t give a shit about faith and they prove that all day long. They’re about power and money. They’re about preserving the world in which their white asses are entitled to position and comfort.
When is the last time you saw a GOP’er quote the Bible in support of an argument advocating compassion? When did you hear a GOP’er say “well God says don’t judge so I am not going to judge these people” or “God sent His Son to tell us to love those that are poor and sick and to help them” ?
You won’t. They use the Bible to legitimize meanness, bigotry and hate. ( Just like some folks use the Koran ) They cheery pick Scripture or outright fabricate it to advance an agenda that is good for them and hard on others. Anathema to the teachings of Christ.
They have no Faith. No Religion. That is religiosity the Reverend has been duped by. At this point in the abortion issue its about hustling the votes of other religious fakers and opposing abortion because its perceived as a Democratic thing. God plays no role.
You only have to look at the pathetic Dugger thing. Could a man of Faith, a family of Faith…do that? Not the molestation ( and come the fuck on now he molested his sisters ) thing but the cover up. Do nothing and let those girls live with that? No. No man or family of Faith would have handled that mess that way. The Duggers are lost in Jesus…and haven’t listed to the Man in years. But like the GOP’ers there’s something in it for them ( money ) so they put on the act.
The don’t live the live of Christ and the GOP’ers don’t give a shit about any of it. Wake up Reverend…you aint helping.
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Until the 1970s, the standard evangelical position was that life did not begin until after birth (“the breath of life”). It’s only when the Christian Right was fully politicized by the GOP that they adopted the new position, purely as a tactical ploy to attack Democrats.
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As well, Leviticus 20:10 insists that adultery is punishable by death - and makes no exception for pregnancy. Why would it? The entire point of the Law was primarily to secure inheritance according to proper succession. The idea of an adulterer’s child being allowed to be born was anathema.
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Thanks for stating the Jewish position. It’s rarely brought up (directly) in discussions of the religious/moral issues.
Yes, Christians - there ARE other religions than yours. And they don’t agree with you.
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My view on abortion is simple:
If you’re a man, butt the phuck out, as it’s none of your business!
If you’re a woman, it’s between you and God or whoever you worship!
That’s it!
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the Abrahamic religions don’t have a monopoly on compassion, both the Hindu & Buddhist faiths spend a lot of time on being concerned about the well being of your fellow humans. interestingly, of all the branches of the Christianity, it’s only a very teeny, tiny (but very loud) sliver that makes all the noise about abortion, and that only in the past 40 years. they’ve done so by making claims found nowhere in any version of any bible, basically making stuff up to suit them, claims that don’t hold up under close inspection. were it not for Reagan joining the GOP with the rightwing fundies in the 80’s, along with the neo-confederates, abortion would probably not be much of an issue for discussion. as it is, the “discussion” is a fraud, the the media uses for ratings.
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For the Catholics out there saying otherwise. My father was the Board Sec for a local Catholic Hospital in PA where I grew up during the 50’s. I remember over hearing may conversations about how to describe the procedure when provided by the hospital. Seemed if you were (1) a “good” Catholic,and (2) could pay for it then anything was possible. More than likely still in practice today.
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I certainly hear “compassion” as a central word in Buddhism, but the central word in Christianity seems to be “forgiveness”, which is compassion with strings attached. Compassion is freely given, but forgiveness requires confession or repentance, and the history of Christianity is that it is OK to extract a confession by torture, and if the repentance is not convincing, it’s OK to kill you or let you die. It’s the lack of compassion in Christianity that allows those who call themselves christian to condemn those who are in some way unfortunate as cursed by God as well. The lack of compassion also leaves an opening for the heretical “prosperity gospel”; which is nearly the opposite of compassion.
Christianity would be a better religion with less “forgiveness” and a lot more “compassion”.
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You can’t refute a stance based upon faith with facts. The pro-birth whack jobs will still believe, bomb, assassinate, because of what they believe.
I posit that the male pro-birthers are the most ‘out there’ because they don’t want their very special spawn to be aborted. A evolutionarily wise outlook if their blood line is more fit. Just dress that up in Gawd Words to have it palatable to other believers.
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