Discussion for article #236533
Iâm guessing this procedure is a trans-vaginal ultrasound (the article does not specifically say)? Something that sadly, sonogram technicians are going to be increasingly called on to do as more and more states start requiring this of women seeking abortions, whether or not their doctors think it is necessary.
The premise that the technicians can better understand how to administer the procedure in a way that minimizes a patientâs discomfort if they undergo it themselves and experience it in the same way a patient does seems pretty well grounded to me, but students should not be brow-beaten into doing that â especially when it is something that only female students would be subjected to.
I looked up Valencia State College â it seems pretty reputable, and in fact, the Aspen Institute named it the top community college in the country in 2011.
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TPM:
Two former students in a community college ultrasound program say they were punished for objecting to a policy that encouraged students to undergo an invasive vaginal procedure to become better technicians.
Perhaps the faculty, staff, and deans involved in this decision should also undergo vaginal probes, or urethral probes for the males, so they can understand their students concerns - and thereby become better teachers and administrators.
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ââŚpolicy that encouraged students to undergo an invasive vaginal procedure to become better technicians.â
This is stupid. What if you are a male student?
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If it was noted as part of the syllabus for the course, they should have no complaints. It seems to be good therapeutic practice to have the student experience the procedure (whatever it isâinjections, enemas, casting, etc.) so that one knows better how to do it.
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SLBinVA, you echoed my thoughts. My next question is are there invasive sonogram-type procedures men go through (that would be covered in this program)? â If so, were the men also encouraged to partake? As a man, I can attest to having a sonogram in the past but not an invasive type.
As a person who has worked in medicine, I have mixed feelings about this. I, personally, believe that if a person working in the field knows from experience what their patients might experienceâfrom their own personal experienceâthat they are indeed much better at what they do and exhibit far more empathy. However, I also understand that the primaryânot the sole, thoughâreason for the procedure appears to be the increase in state-mandated hurdles to women accessing safe healthcare.
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Do the students self-administer the probing or is it administered by one of those eager faculty members?
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This is why they have anatomically correct dummies.
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âA school spokeswoman said Tuesday that the program upholds the highest standards for sonography training.â
Well, Iâm not capable at judging the quality of their training in regards to the medical procedures themselves. However, it is clear that their ethical standards can use some improvement.
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âA school spokeswoman said Tuesday that the program upholds the highest standards for sonography training.â
In fact, 3 of our faculty have won a Golden Probe and 2 have been nominatedâŚ
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Because how many male medical students are encouraged to give themselves vasectomies or circumcisionsâŚyou know, so they can better understand how the patient will feel? Shall we encourage neuro surgeons to undergo brain surgery a few times so they can better grasp how patients feel?
There are plenty of other, much better, methods for teaching and building empathy skills in caregivers. Forcing them to undergo the procedures themselves is not one of them.
Even in the sci-fi films when the doctor tests out some new procedure or drug on him/herself, it almost always ends badly. Probably a reason for that.
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Meh. If I was studying to become a proctologist I think itâs reasonable to be expected to undergo a rectal exam. Obviously there are some tests that are impractical or impossible to reproduce on students, but where possible it seems like a good practice. the fact the test may be âinvasiveâ is all the more reason to undergo it in my opinion, as itâs that much more critical to understand what the patient is going through to provide good care.
Should people be able to opt out? I donât know, but Iâm certainly having a difficult time getting worked out over this.
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Where does that kind of thinking stop? Does a neurosurgeon need his skull penetrated as part of his training? Does a heart surgeon need his chest cracked?
It used to be common in Medical School for the students to do complete physicals upon each other, including genital and rectal examinations, on the theory that doctors should not see these as personal experiences, merely tasks. That became severely questioned once women started attending Medical School in significant numbers, but it was still something you heard about in the 60s and even 70s. Now these skills are usually learned using actors and âmodelsâ, who are paid to allow students to interview and examine them. There is no benefit from having the students experience invasive exams and procedures. If there were, weâd let them try having surgery, chemotherapy and other experiences that they may soon impose upon heir patients.
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According to Raw Story, the female students were forced to disrobe and have the transvaginal probe conducted in full view of the rest of the class accompanied by suggestive commentary from the instructor. Some students had to undergo this more than once. Sometimes the student conducting the exam would be prompted to âsexually stimulateâ the âpatientâ in order to facilitate the probe. If true, it sounds a lot worse than the way itâs described in the AP article.
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I donât know exactly how strange it is. My sister went thru a midwifery program at the University of Penn and she said they practiced on each other giving pelvic exams.
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Now, now - no need to bring the Republican Party into this!
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Yes, a friend of mine made good side-money serving as a pelvic-examination and breast examination model on-stage in classes for a major teaching hospital. Itâs not for the stage-shy or intensely modest, thatâs for sure! She felt it was very useful to help train doctors so that they performed these tasks with care for the patient, and not just routinely as if it were a dummy without sensation. She was vocal throughout the exams, giving feedbackâand encouragement for those students who were very hesitant to handle a real live person in such a way! 
Voluntarily is fine⌠but even as a 3-time mother with all the private exams that entails I shuddered to think of myself ever being subjected to such a display!
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Whew! They should just be glad that they werenât training to become executioners!
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ââŚand their academic standing was threatenedâ
So female students there tend to have better academic standing than males⌠seeing as how all men have to opt-out?
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