Discussion: Senate Intel Dem: Comey Firing Indicates Trump Admin Is 'Afraid' Of Russia Probe

[quote=“antisachetdethe, post:22, topic:55825”]
Shouldn’t those opposed to the party leave and raise their own money to form their own party?
[/quote]Something like that.
Unless bitching for the sake of bitching is the underlying motivation, which it sure seems to be.
This particular character is chock full of complaints but has yet to put forth a better solution that has any chance whatsoever of materializing.
I’m very certain that hating on the Dems, or anyone for that matter, will never amount to anything, except possibly more personal frustration.

I suggest a warning label that reads, Warning-huge useless vent about to reoccur!

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The actual articles on TPM do not expand on my tablet unlike the front page or posts on other sites. They stay microscopic.

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As i said on another thread, how many times does trump have to commit obstruction in public on tv to make the Congress take action?

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I read his answer in exactly the opposite way, as limiting himself to the publicly available information. While it’s frustrating to hear him parse so finely, otoh I appreciate he’s attempting to maintain the integrity of his investigation.

Still, what I wouldn’t give for a special prosecutor right about now…

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Bet’cha my farm that the Secret Service has cameras and micrphones in every last room of the White House.

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If you’re ready to be scared to death, read this.

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F*** yes to this. Thousands times f*** yes. Each and every Hill Democrat should repeat this each and every time they talk to reporters & on camera.

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The obvious isn’t a thing much heard on Fox Sunday.

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They are both trolls, always have been. Their intent is to sow dissension and try to create a larger meme of weak Dems (sound familar?) to drive down the anger and activism that is rising in the party. Or at the very least to split some people off, in order for republicans to hold on to seats. I think both of their motives speak clearly about who they are.

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Unlike Republicans who will run to the nearest Tee-Vee camera to breathlessly repeat the latest thing they read on Breitbart I think the Democrats who are in the know and in a position to do something (including Schiff) are moving forward very deliberately.

Yes the 35-40% Feral Trumper base who will always support Their Glorious Leader won’t care what evidence emerges but they’re not the audience - it’s everyone else who thinks selling out to the Russians is not the patriotic thing to do. Particularly Republicans / conservatives / independents who might otherwise think this is a partisan witch hunt.

IMHO of course

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The Republicans will get around to doing the right thing, just as soon as they have eviscerated/sabotaged the ACA and passed giant tax cuts for the rich. And gutted Medicaid and rolled back protections in Medicare. And whatever else I’m forgetting. THEN they will stand up to Trump and put Pence in his place.

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Something I’ve been thinking about that I don’t see anyone talking about.

Suppose the stars align and the nation is able to get to the bottom of the Trump Campaign / Russia connection, determines there was collusion, and in a reasonable amount of time e.g. Trump / Republicans are not able to successfully stonewall, block, derail or run out the clock.

What happens then? Even if Trump is removed from office the entire Presidency is tainted. All his EOs and nominations (including Gorsuch) came from his tainted Presidency. Same with laws he’s signed.

And what about Pence? Even if the investigation showed him to be totally in the dark (which I doubt) would we seriously allow him to be President since the campaign was in collusion?

IMHO this is similar to when we discover that a Forensics examiner wasn’t doing his job or the lab was faulty - all the convictions which relied on testimony of the examiner or results from the lab have to be re-visited (this is currently happening in Austin / Travis County e.g. APD crime lab freezer broken and no one noticed).

The problem is that AFAIK our system isn’t setup for this use case.

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So then, who is trump’s mentor/guide? Who is doing the strategy? I doubt trump is anywhere near that subtle and wise to stage a power grab unaided. And Bannon has been sidelined.

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Let’s assume it really was just Trump and a few toadies making direct quid-pro-quos with Russian criminals / officials and that they were so sloppy that it all comes out very rapidly, but also so completely that we can be fairly sure that Pence and the broader GOP had no part in it.

I think in a bygone era, you’d maybe see the Republicans forming a sort of bipartisan centrist coalition government out of fear that everyone would see them reaping the rewards of the crime, even if they weren’t directly involved. That would have been relatively easy at some times, since partisanship wasn’t ideologically-oriented. But now… the party (and their coalitions) cannot be separated from policy. Any change to the status quo on just about every issue is moving the football toward one of the party’s major coalitions’ end-zone.

Best case scenario, Trump makes such a mess going down that Republicans are paralyzed by it, scramble in all directions and just pass continuing resolutions until the next election. But some things can’t be undone, like the Supreme Court. It ultimately comes down to a subsequent election.

If the electorate is sufficiently pissed about the long-term partisan unfairness and empower Democrats with sweeping majorities, and there is a national mood to remove all stains of Trumpism, then maybe they impeach Pence and whoever is in the VP slot (a large enough majority can make any infraction impeachable) and Nancy Pelosi becomes the 47th president in early 2018. And with large and angry enough majorities, the Democrats could increase the number of justices on the court to eleven or even thirteen to essentially nullify Trump’s appointment(s), since the number is determined by statute. And along with that, aggressive changes to election law and voting rights to push back against generations of marginal Republican tinkering that has left Democrats at an electoral disadvantage.

And you could imagine that happening relatively quickly if people are sufficiently angry about what has just happened. Much of the election reforms could be couched in terms to prevent another event like 2016 (and they could make some hay out of the fact that the two most recent historically bad Presidents both lost the popular vote and only won through dodgy external intervention). “The Party of the People”, who first and foremost care about lower-case D democratic principles, and then crucially pass a series of populist, popular reforms that drastically improve people’s lives in concrete and immediate ways, so that they remain in power nationally long enough to keep the pendulum from swinging back.

More likely (assuming it’s not the end of the Republic as we know it), the GOP takes a hit for a few years, “reinvents itself”, and comes back swinging in 2 years. Based on 2006 and 2008, the party of George W. Bush had no business being back in power so quickly, yet here we are.

Edit: That was a lot longer than I meant it to be, but it’s a really open question that (as you said) hasn’t really been given a lot of consideration.

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You are talking about the best case scenario and I doubt we get anywhere close to that despite the fact that it makes total sense.

I say this thinking back on how we got stuck with little bush and bamboozled into war and the Wall Street fueled recession that no one went to prison over and how these bastards are still involved.

What happens is probably not known but will be based on what happens first,

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Duh. It’s been behind everything he has said and done about it. He’s afraid of the investigation and that is more telling than any evidence we have been privy to. He has been criticizing it and calling it fake news since the hacking was shown to be done by the Russians.

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The article suggests it’s Putin.

You’re definitely right about the most likely scenario. Most voters don’t think in those kinds of partisan terms. If Trump was illegitimate, then Trump is removed, then the problem is “solved”.

Most Democratic voters would probably be satisfied to humiliate Trump and leave subsequent issues to the next election. But there could also be knock-on electoral effects. Children and young-adults who grow up in this era are going to be formed by it in ways I wouldn’t hope to guess at. Demographics in 20 years might have sealed the GOP’s death warrant already. Trump (especially if he’s known to be a humiliated traitor) couldn’t possibly help.

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You assume it’s just Agent Orange + a few toadies. What if the whole R leadership is complicit? We really don’t have any mechanisms for that. No provisions for a re-do on the election, no way to mediate/adjudicate a compromise…just a succession plan that leads down a path of one elected R worse than the last AO-appointed cabinet member.

@litho that Forbes article is indeed scary, but as @darrtown asked, who’s steering Agent Orange. He can clearly achieve chaos & fog—with his conman playbook’ it comes natural to him. But directed to anything but the grift needs a planner.

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You understand nothing about investigations and eventual findings of investigations, nor the politics surrounding them. What you’re suggesting is not tackle politics, but rather more like fumble politics.

To spell it out for you, just like a judge who instructs a jury, you can’t reach conclusions until you’ve heard all the evidence. Politically, no matter what he thinks, he cannot be seen to have prejudged the conclusions of his committee. If he did, he’d have to disclose the evidence he is relying on, which he cannot do. At this point, Warner is not in a position to disclose ANY of the unpublished evidence, much less reach some conclusion about it.

. Yet.

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