Discussion for article #228690
Bill Maher criticizes all religions. Nobody likes it when it’s their turn.
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If that’s what’s passing for thoughtful we are in pretty bad shape. Aslan slings mud and attacks a strawman rather than Maher’s argument.
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When I was growing up, I used to have people try to convince me that black people were different from, and inferior to, white people. They piled anecdote upon anecdote to paint a picture of a violent and ignorant people. Now, when I hear people from Pam Geller to Bill Maher claim that there is something inherently violent about Islam, I hear the same sort of selective argument. As an atheist, I am predisposed to disregard the validity of any religion. But I know bigotry when I hear it. Aslan is right.
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Haven’t we learned yet that attaching behavior to ethnic and religious roots is a conveniently distorted approach to understanding human behavior (think blacks/violence, Jews/greed, etc.)? It’s strikingly ironic that in calling out Islam as uniquely antisocial, Maher has engaged in behavior that truly is historically associated with provoking and feeding violence.
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I’m inclined to think you didn’t actually read the piece in the NYT.
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Very true, Fiance and agreed. Bill Maher is right on most issues IMO but he’s dead wrong on this IMO. Many Jews & Muslims have this innate bizarre sibling rivalry hate for each other, almost reminiscent of old Protestant/Catholic strife in Ireland of past decades. Eventually the Irish got over their rivalry, I hope the Jews & Muslims can get over their animosity for each other soon, especially since they’re Semitic brothers.
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If I recall correctly the Christians and Muslims fought numerous very bitter wars during the middle ages. Those wars continued up to at least the period of the European Empires. Both sides killed with gusto in the name of their respective God. I don’t think either side was particularly noble.
Killing in the name of God seems to be a feature of most world religions.
Sad but true. It’s strange that Maher can’t see that he’s engaging in the exact same behavior he keeps purporting to criticize bigots of. Real sad. His anti Islam and even his anti Christian rants are annoying at times, but his hysterical anti Islamic ravings are quite disturbing.
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Yeah, plenty have killed in the name of anti religion too. Look at Pol Pot and many Communist regimes. The point is selfish/bad people have used religion or hate of religion to achieve their own selfish desires because they were selfish, bad people NOT because religion or lack of religion itself is bad & made them do it. Look beneath the surface. Blaming religion or lack of religion is counter-productive IMO. Blame the individualistic people who do harm as Affleck pointed out, not a whole group or religion.
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CarlosFiance is also right. Maher is wrong.
The hate of Muslims by Jews is just as bad and inherently violent as radical Islam. Other than hatred, how else do you explain the butchery that Israel just inflicted on thousands of Palestinian children and civilians just months ago.
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Aslan “thoughtful”? He teases out the different uses of the label “Muslim”: a religion, a culture, an identity. Then he claims Maher doesn’t understand this difference. Yet Maher was careful to criticize “Muslim” in a fourth sense: as a collection of ideas. He wasn’t insulting “Muslim” people. He was addressing the seriously evil ideas — such as that apostates should be killed — that are embraced by clear majorities in some countries whose identity is “Muslim,” including Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
Attacking ideas, however widely held, and however related to religion and culture, is not the same as expressing prejudice or animus towards persons. That’s something Maher, as a Western liberal intellectual, knows well. It’s what those who call him a bigot, such as Aslan, who is an intellectual but certainly not liberal, and perhaps in POV not Western, misses entirely. To some Muslims, to question their ideas is to attack their Muslim identity, and Allah Himself, blessed be His Name. This confusion only facilitates evil, when it’s evil ideas going unquestioned in the name of not appearing “a bigot,” subject to name calling by, well, bigots like Aslan, who can’t stand honest liberal debate over ideas.
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Maher’s political discourses are all about as sophisticated as a pie in the face. Since he’s a liberal, his political barbs are mostly on target, but his understanding of religion in human life is about one micron deep. I don’t watch it enough to say for certain that he’s singling out Islam but it wouldn’t be surprising. Compared to Maher, Jon Stewart is Montesquieu and John Locke rolled into one.
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I challenge people to actually read Mr. Aslan’s op-ed and interview linked to in this article. Thought provoking and challenging stuff. Quite refreshing compared to the blowhard absolutism that passes as “straight talk” on cable news and political chat shows. We must all stand up against anyone that promotes religious illiteracy and fundamentalism, even those that do so under the guise of liberalism. That level of sophistication may not make for exciting television and it may not fulfill our egoistic need for drama and conflict, but it is so important in our multicultural pluralistic global community.
“Religion is a matter of identity much more so than it is a matter of beliefs and practices, and that is something that is very, very difficult for Americans to understand. So if it were up to me, I would try to remind people that religious literacy is as important in our world today as any other kind of literacy, and that if we had a better understanding — and I mean this especially for religious people — of what religion actually is, its malleability, its historical construction, then I think we would be in a better place to criticize those aspects of religion that deserve criticism.” -Reza Aslan, (from the Salon interview).
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There’s a difference between criticizing religion or religions and lambasting a religion just for the sake of attacking it. Maher showed a great deal of Islamaphobia in his rant.
I’ve criticized Islam several times, and how it is interpreted and practiced, but I’ve done so in a calm and rational manner. The way some people have rewritten Islam is barbaric, but as one Imam I read pointed out, some of the worst barbaric practices in Islam pre-date Mohammed. This particular Imam, who translated my copy of the Quran, pointed out that the wearing of head scarves is a practice that is pre-Islamic (the Quran calls for people to dress modestly).
The thing is, prejudice and bigotry come from a place of ignorance. Critique and discourse come from a place of learning. Bill Maher has shown himself to be a bigot when it comes to Islam.
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Whoa. It didn’t even occur to me that Bill Maher was a Jew. If he is, it doesn’t strike me as being central to his Islamophobia. I get the impression that he doesn’t like any religion much, a feeling that I share generally. I just think here he’s venturing into territory beyond mere irreligiosity.
BTW, does anyone know how to reply to more than one person at time?
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Do you really think Maher has more than a gnat’s knowledge or understanding of Islam as a “collection of ideas?” To call Maher a “western liberal intellectual” is to rob the term intellectual of any meaning at all. He’s just a comedian on TV with a lot of opinions and very little education, insight, or knowledge.
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Or to be more accurate…
Jon Stewart is a Fool while Maher is a Village Idiot.
Alright…Stewart is a satirist. The Celts considered the satirist to be the most dangerous Bard in society- and that is because they felt compelled to tell the unvarnished truth sometimes softened by humor as Stewart does.
Maher is far more of a provocateur. I’ve never found him particularly funny and while he, too, exposes a certain amount of truth, his aim is to inflame not mock.
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Sam Harris on the show talked about how “Islam” was the problem and he has long term argument that even moderates in religion are bad since they enable the more strident.
And, then he criticizes liberals for being too soft. But, when trying to deal with extremism, it is not a great strategy (unless you are a Sam Harris type critic) to criticize ALL Muslims, or all who are not token Muslims, when dealing with Muslim countries.
“Islam” isn’t the problem any more than “Christianity” is the problem when dealing with the Christian right, and if you did a poll, 20% of Christians in many parts of the country will have really horrible views. It is a FORM of religion that is the problem and often the religion is just an expression of something wider like cultural views.
Bill Maher often is about as smooth as Affleck when expressing the nuances of all of this.
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Please explain, what does “religion as a matter of identity” mean here? I understand the concept, despite being an American. It’s like a consumer brand being a matter of identity. Being an Apple fan is similar to being a Buddhist, in this sense.
Okay, but we can have technical discussions with both Apple fans and Buddhists about the ideas and implementations in these identified-with products and philosophies. They don’t claim we’re bigots for debating on these points. So for Maher to suggest that there’s something seriously wrong with many of the ideas professed by majorities in some Muslim-identified cultures, how is that more bigoted than my ongoing arguments with some Buddhists over the doctrine of “no self”?
Now, Buddhists aren’t killing people over doctrinal disputes (aside from in Burma, perhaps). Muslims are. But that’s not the fault of those of us who would disagree strongly with their ideas, even where these ideas are tied up with their brand-identity. It does not make bigots of us, or of Maher. Aslan’s saying something that sounds profound. But does it really support any complaint against Maher?
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