Discussion: NYT: Trump Lawyer John Dowd Floated Pardons For Flynn And Manafort

[daled]

@sparrowhawk

It’s a little too easy to misread “filing” as a different, very similar word and it made my heart skip a beat when I first read it in the Editor’s Blog.

LOL
I had the same reaction this morning!!!

[longtimeobserver]

LOCK them ALL up.

[pluckyinky]

@established_1781

Either way, I don’t expect the life expectancy of any of these guys to range much further beyond the current investigation. In fact it might be the only thing keeping them alive at this point.

Totally agree. It’s just naive to think that by not taking they’re somehow going to survive this. Talking, staying quiet and going to prison, whatever. As along as they’re a threat to Putin, if they’re a threat, they’re a liability. Prison would only serve to provide easier access when/if Putin decides to off them, but they’re probably already dead. With Flynn the only real question is whether his son is too.

[established_1781]

I think you put it as well as it can be put- alive in any situation they are a threat and liability. Their value to Putin and Trump is best served by a permanent and irreversible silence.

[darrtown]

Because it was so extra specially popular when Ford pardoned Nixon.

((( grrrr!!!)))

[dcd]

A question here is whether Mueller could compel Dowd to testify to whether Trump requested, knew of or encouraged Dowd to offer pardons, thus exposing Trump to witness tampering / obstruction liability. Normally attorney-client privilege would apply to prevent this. However, one exception to attorney-client privilege is the crime-fraud exception. An attorney cannot assert privilege with respect to conversations with the purpose of committing (or furthering the commission of) or covering up a crime. Here, the discussions of offering up pardons to Flynn / Manafort sure look like an effort to discourage witnesses from cooperating with Mueller and testifying against Trump. In other words, potential witness tampering / obstruction of justice. So Dowd may not have attorney-client privilege to hide behind on this one.

[dont]

Smart enough to get the fuck out.
But even I could have figured that out.

[ignoreland]

Yeah, that’s what threw me. How could this help?

[dcd]

If Dowd does have liability, he could presumably plead the fifth to avoid testifying, thus avoiding testimony against Trump as well. Dowd may not be able to hide behind attorney-client privilege due to the crime-fraud exception to privilege. So if he were to plead the fifth to avoid testimony, I wonder if Mueller would grant Dowd immunity in order to get his testimony against Trump. A witness cannot refuse to testify on the basis of the fifth amendment if the witness is granted immunity from the underlying crime.

[pluckyinky]

@bankerpup

If Trump starts pardoning people. he’d better hope the next POTUS pardons him. Even then, he’ll be exposed to state-level action.

And this isn’t 1974 when a president was pardoned for obstructing justice in a totally unnecessary burglary to aide him in an election he unquestionably would’ve won. This is much, much bigger.

[sparrowhawk]

@darrtown

Because it was so extra specially popular when Ford pardoned Nixon.

((( grrrr!!!)))

People have said that Nixon finally saw the writing on the wall and opted to bow out gracefully when he resigned, but if I recall, Ford released a posthumous letter that explained what really happened. In the letter, Ford basically said it was a tit-for-tat deal. Nixon had no intention of resigning until Ford agreed to pardon him as soon as he was sworn in. Otherwise, Nixon was going to hold onto the presidency until the Congress ripped it from his cold, politically dead hands.

So according to Ford, Nixon only did the “honorable” thing once Ford promised him the golden parachute to escape prosecution. Knowing what a good “deal-maker” Trump is, there’s no doubt that Trump will be able to go out with just as much dignity as Nixon. Wait, scratch that, reverse it.

[serendipitoussomnambulist]

I read with interest the assassination of RT founder Michael Lesin in Washington DC. Does anyone know whether he died in a hotel owned by the Trumps? I found an article in the Washington Post regarding Lesin’s death
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/former-aide-to-russian-president-died-of-blunt-force-trauma-to-head-medical-examiner/2016/03/10/8a61dc16-e702-11e5-bc08-3e03a5b41910_story.html?utm_term=.c05098e97562
It refers to a hotel in Dupont Circle. Is the Trump hotel in Dupont Circle. I am curious because Ivanka has strong ties to the Russian mafia in New York.

[bcgister]

Thanks. I pulled my post bc TPM answered my question – offering pardons would be legal.
Also, that the pardon still leaves the prospective witness obliged to provide honest testimony, under threat of sanction for perjury, means that, while the pardon takes away some of Mueller’s leverage with the prospective witness, it does still leave them on hook.

[pluckyinky]

@established_1781

I think you put it as well as it can be put- alive in any situation they are a threat and liability. Their value to Putin and Trump is best served by a permanent and irreversible silence.

I can just picture someone like Manafort thinking he’s a tough guy who can handle himself in prison the way he’s handled himself around so many ruthless oligarchs and strongmen. That would last for all of about a week until he saw some real shit go down and decided maybe prison isn’t for him. Putin is the real deal. Manafort is little more than a little baby gangster in a custom made Italian suit. He’s not about that life.

[sonsofares]

@pluckyinky

This is much, much bigger.

And much, much more disgusting and obvious.

[pluckyinky]

@sonsofares

And much, much more disgusting and obvious.

And stupid! Fat Nixon and Stormy Daniels star in “Extra Stupid Ass Watergate”.

[serendipitoussomnambulist]

Why are Don McGahn and John Kelly leaking these private conversations now? What is going on?

[joce_m]

@serendipitoussomnambulist

It refers to a hotel in Dupont Circle. Is the Trump hotel in Dupont Circle. I am curious because Ivanka has strong ties to the Russian mafia in New York.

The hotel is the Dupont Circle Hotel (per WaPo), whose website says it is part of the Doyle Group.

[dcd]

It’s not at all clear that there is no criminal liability for offering pardons to Flynn and Manafort as described. There are plenty of legal scholars and prosecutors who take the position that while the pardon power may be broad, it cannot be used for an illegal purpose, such as illegally interfering with a criminal investigation. I suspect there are more who take that position than the Dershowitz line that the president has the power to pardon, and so it’s use cannot be the basis of criminal liability. That seems pretty goofy to me. If Dowd, and/or Trump through Dowd, offered the pardons to encourage Flynn and Manafort not to cooperate with Mueller, there’s a good case to be made that’s a criminal act of witness tampering / obstruction.

[epicurus]

…saying he’d like to wait and “see what happens” first.

Me, too. I don’t think he even grasps how much trouble he’s in nor how capable and thorough Mueller is. I eagerly await 45 getting a very nasty surprise, very soon. Go ahead and talk to the investigators, Donnie; what could possibly go wrong? It reminds me of Sam Spade’s line in The Maltese Falcon: “My guess might be excellent or it might be crummy, but Mrs. Spade didn’t raise any children dippy enough to make guesses in front of a district attorney, and an assistant district attorney, and a stenographer.” Methinks Mrs. Trump didn’t impart that particular bit of wisdom to her son.