Discussion: NY Farm That Refused To Host Lesbian Wedding Fined $13,000

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21

All of those services are provided by that property owner through his taxes. The Government is not an overlord and sugar daddy…its a necessary function paid for by its people. It is not, in the USA, a self controlling entity. It is, unfortunately for folks of your authoritarian type: "of, by and for the people’.

If I was a B’Bart or FOX clown I’d be screen capping this thread as proof “liberals want everyone dependent on government” and that government is their grand master…you must kneel before it.

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Oh come on … coats and ties? Talk about false equivalency.

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Good. IMHO, the fine should have had one more zero on the end, but it’s good to see bigots be formally made to pay for their acts of discrimination. That the Giffords used Christianity as their justification for violating New York’s anti-discrimination law reminded me once again of the words spoken by Mahatma Ghandi:

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
― Mahatma Gandhi

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24

Then read it again. The bible was not written in English. It was written in ancient languages which have been translated. The specific choice of English used in translation words has nothing to do with the Bibles intended meaning. Nor does it change it. In the current King James translation the word homosexual is used in Corinthians 6:9-10. I have included it below.

But what the fuck is with the equivocation? JHC guy…are you going to take that lame liberal chat board shit public? You gonna say the Bible is OK with gays? That’s BS and mincing words ( the GOP’er do that with the “thou shalt not murder” shit and the liberals scream at it ) is crap. The Bible condemns homosexuality (perhaps without using that specific word ) just like the “Right to Work Bill” was about union busting without using the term.

LEVITICUS 18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

LEVITICUS 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.

JUDGES 19:22-23 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, “Bring out the man who came to your house so we [Benjamites living in Gibeah] can have sex with him.” The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile.”

1 KINGS 14:24 There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land [Rehoboam was king at the time]; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites.

1 KINGS 15:12 He [King Asa] expelled the male shrine prostitutes from the land [Judah] and got rid of all the idols his fathers had made.

1 KINGS 22:46 He [King Jehosophat] rid the land [Judah] of the rest of the male shrine prostitutes who remained there even after the reign of his father Asa.

2 KINGS 23:7 He [King Josiah] also tore down the quarters of the male shrine prostitutes, which were in the temple of the Lord and where women did weaving for Asherah.

1 CORINTHIANS 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 TIMOTHY 1:9-11 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

JUDE 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

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Aaargh. A dress code is the same as no shirt no shoes no service, And Le Cirque is accommodating those that show up unaware of the dress code. Next yes the business is on private property, but it is still a business offering it services to the public I did not say it was a public space. So now we are back to; can you deny service to a black person or a inter racial couple for any reason? No, so this business offering it’s services to the general public, NOT CHURCH, cannot deny service to this couple for any reason. Now I agree with you I wouldn’t use these folks on bet if I were an LGBT couple, but that doesn’t mean I would report their discriminatory practices to the appropriate authorities.

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You used the term “false equivalency” and it seems to me you don’t have a grasp of what one is. Where is the equivalency false?

Stop dodging valid points with BS head fakes. Do you or do you not think that restaurant can demand you put on a tie and if not kick you out? The legitimate equivalency: That they can set their own standards in their own place even if they seem unreasonable to some.

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Oh good fucking grief. If I run a business that caters to the public I may own the building and the land the building sits on as well as the business, but this does not give me the right to discriminate based race, creed or sexual orientation not matter what my personal religious beliefs may or may not be.

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Church has nothing to do with this…no one is making an argument using the term and you need to drop it. Its not a strong pint for you. Its an irrelevancy.

Dress codes are arbitrary rules handed down by a property owner because its what they want. They are capricious and there is no underlying reason for them supported in law. The First Amendment guarantees Religious freedom.

Below I am accused of “false equivalency” by another poster. I hope he or she is reading this so I can point out what a FE is. You reference to interracial couples is one. We are talking about Gay marriage which involves Gay people. The Bible condemns all homosexual activity. It says it is a sin and abomination. It says squat about interracial stuff.

I think that’s bullshit as I think much of the Bible is BS but it says that homosexuality is a sin. And out Founders enshrined the right to believe in that Bible and live by it. If you are truly devout…a true believer in all that jaz in the Good Book…you cannot marry those girls. You will take your hit…essentially making you a martyr…but you cannot do it. There is no Biblical, therefore no protected religious reason, not to marry interracial couples.

There is a legitimate religious reason to condemn homosexuality. There is not one to justify your examples. I do not think your analogies are parallel and that is a problem.

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The bible says committing homosexuality is a sin. It doesn’t say anything about discriminating against homosexuals and does say something about judging others. Maybe they think the temptation to join in the lifestyle is just to overpowering? On the other hand they could be just some real idiots who have no understanding of law or religion.

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Why do you not have that right? I own a biz too and it is open to the public. I don’t have an objection to Gays…or Blacks or what ever religion you choose. So in my case…and I think in yours…there is no cause to do it. That’s not the case for the farm owners and lets no avoid the fact this is their HOME we are talking about.

I am a veterinarian. If you fight Pit Bulls I will NOT see you as a client and I will take your dog from you understanding the risks I am entailing do to conflict with the government ( the dog is yours and i have no right to deprive you of it ) and its 'rues". But you can bet your fucking red neck ass I am going to throw you out and keep your dog.

I am wrong in doing both. Should I cow tow to the almighty Government or stick to my principals?

But enough. English is a second language for me and all this debate shit rattles my trilingual brain. I’m going downstairs to cook dinner and speak Spanish to my wife…and not about religious shit. Have a good night…its been fun.

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First, the Bible doesn’t say homosexuality is a sin. Anywhere. Period.

Second, discrimination in the public square is not legal. Period.

Third, declining to offer pork chops <> declining to cater. That should be obvious even to those of low intelligence.

Fourth, decades of case law says this kind of discrimination is a tort, and damages are due to the victims of it.

In other words, you couldn’t possibly more wrong if you had set out to be on purpose.

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Last time I check dogfighting is illegal. No mention of it in the bible so…By the way it’s a home business. A for profit non religious business. They could have just as well formed their own church and avoid the whole thing. Five dollars will buy a minister’s license off the back of any wack job rag. You might loan them one and fill out the form as well.

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“The Almighty Government?” That “government” sends sons and daughters to risk their lives to keep you and your business in existence. This is why religion and government should not mix. If you had your way, this great country would turn into Afghanistan, where religion is above the law. No thank you.

“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from
among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)”

Since you are quoting the Bible, I guess that if someone wants to sell their daughters into slavery, it’s okay with you. This country will turn into another country like in the middle east unless it keeps the laws above religious preference.

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http://www.openbible.info/topics/mixed_race_marriage, must be a lot of squat you have not read.

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I am no fan of the Leviticus part of the bible and the penalty proscriptions found therein. But tell me, how is it that the one line in Leviticus regarding a man laying with man should be obeyed but the other penalty proscriptions like stoning if you eat shellfish, can be ignored? If you can ignore the parts of Leviticus because they don’t comport with modern views on penalties or resolving disputres, then you can do the same with a may laying with a man.

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Speaking of facts give me some. Since you say you are a business owner. Tell me when you can deny your services to someone. And are any if these times because of the color of their skin, their sexual orientation, their gender or their religious beliefs. And yes sparky because this farm us not a church has great bearing on this case and the fact that you can’t sees this is rather stunning.

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The real issue here is, why are we even giving exemptions to people who have a “sincerely held religious belief” (I disagree that any person can actually have a sincerely held religious belief, but I digress.) I realize that, by definition, a Command from God cannot be immoral or wrong but there are problems there too. (Like, w/o proof that there is even a God, how do you know those words are God’s and not stuff made up by people?)

38

The analogy of a restaurant not serving a particular food is a bad one. If I go into a Vegan restaurant and I ask for a real beef burger, they will politely remind me that I am in a Vegan restaurant and if I really want that beef burger, I can go next door to Joe’s Burger Joint. Am I being discriminated against because I like animal meat? No, I am not because it is a demand I cannot make of the owner who wants to serve only Vegan food. Not only that, the business will make it very clear that it is a Vegan place so I will know up front. This is a world away from an establishment that opens its farm to the public for weddings. That is the product they are serving and since that is what I am looking for (a wedding venue), they can’t turn me down because I am gay.

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This is the aspect of this issue I don’t see brought up, but it is the central point. This is a BUSINESS. They are incorporated. A corporation is a legal, fictitious entity that allows individuals to conduct business in the PUBLIC sphere while protecting their PERSONAL assets. This is the foundation of the free-enterprise system. It is fundamental to why the system works and why Hobby-Lobby is a danger to all businesses. If my personal beliefs, religious or otherwise, influence or impact how I conduct my business, then that opens the door for my personal assets to be at risk. Hobby-Lobby blurs that line between a corporate entity and personal assets.

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If a restaurant has a dress code, that code applies to everyone, so it is fair. Imagine however, a black person walks in and is told he must wear a jacket and tie yet everyone else in the room is not wearing a jacket and a tie. That, would be discrimination.

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