Discussion: Netanyahu Warns Hamas On Rejecting Truce

TPM Article Topics
21

If you actually read the Goldberg article that’s cited, you will see that in fact, even according to Goldberg, hamas was operating rockets before Israel’s strike. In fact, it was precisely the death of a Hamas rocket-squad member preparing a launch that set Hamas off on it’s “official” barrage.

Moreover, if you read this http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/03/hamas-islamic-jihad-gaza-israel-rockets-siege-egypt.html --hardly a Zionist source–, you will see that Hamas plays a close game with Islamic Jihad, sometimes allowing rocket attacks, sometimes cutting them off. If they want to rule the Gaza strip, then it’s their job to control the rocket launches, period.

And I don’t think I spoke “glowingly” of Netanyahu at all. Not my idea of a leader and I wish he weren’t PM. But the bottom line is that for all your prattling about Israeli violence, Israel has accepted the cease fire, and hamas rejected it. spin it any way you want to.

and I don’t dismiss the deaths of anyone, but that doesn’t mean I have to make false charges of war crimes, either. Moreover, I recognize that this conflict is not just about what Israel does, it’s also about what Hamas does, and until they are gone more of those women and children will die. But hey, don’t worry, you’ll still get to wax self-righteously about zionist genocide.

22

These “dangerous rockets” are ineffective and impotent. They cause little or no human casualties. They serve as a useful justification for Israel’s continued killing of Palestinians.

But you’ve not addressed any of the points I’ve raised about Israeli policy once the rocket attacks have ceased. What about the blockade, the systematic withholding of food, water and utilities, the ever expanding settlements, the IDF humiliation and torture of Palestinians, the withholding of PA funds, the purposeful destruction of Palestinian infrastructure, etc., etc., etc.?

The Israeli government is forever moving the goalposts so there will never be an agreement for peace. Try reading the writings of the Christian Palestinian and Columbia professor, the late Edward Said to get an understanding of the Israeli’s peaceful intentions.

There will always be a reason for the Israeli Zionists to murder and subjugate Palestinians. That is why I will always have the opportunity to discuss Israeli genocide.

You tell me what happens after the rockets cease to fire. What demonstration has Israel ever made to lend confidence to the proposition that peace will occur.?

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23

So, why then is the job never completed? toughguy vs uberjude, that is rich. Round and round we go. Suffering is addictive. Dialectics are deadly.

24

I wish to confront the narrative of the peace seeking Israeli. I’m an advocate for peace. There is much to criticize of Palestinian “leadership” over many decades. However, Palestinians have no power to implement peace with a country that sees no benefit from it. the status quo is perfectly acceptable to Israel.

The only way peace can be achieved is if the Israeli people elect leaders that will make tangible moves to change the dynamic. Lift the blockade, allow infrastructure to be rebuilt, allow Jerusalem to be a shared city, cease the building of new settlements and either dismantle existing ones or hand them over to the Palestinian people. These would be profound demonstartions of peaceful intent.

Your snark is noted meta. However, other than being clever, it serves no constructive purpose.

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25

It is not my intention to appear clever in the face of what is at its base nothing more than a territorial struggle that is subjecting not only the direct parties but the whole world to horrible suffering. The dialectics are working for who the MIC? Time to bring the humanity back to what is otherwise untenable.

And yes, we need capable leaders who can transcend immorality. And simply focusing on image is not going to cut it. We need some practicality which heretofore has been utterly rejected.

26

Do you have other statistics? No, of course not. Israel is not reporting the number of fatalities, the Palestinians are. We know that in more than 90 percent of the Israeli airstrikes, there are no fatalities, and we know that in many cases, Israel is warning people to leave. You, by contrast, don’t have any evidence, you’re just ranting.

27

You do realize that some of that is precisely what was done in 2005–Ariel Sharon broke with his past, broke with his party, and created a new political party explicitly committed to a two-state solution. Israel left Gaza, left the settlements, handed them over to the Palestinian people, and there was no blockade.

Those were most certainly “tangible moves to change the dynamic.” What they got in exchange was Hamas. which is what led to the blockade, the airstrikes, and so forth.

Jerusalem has a large Arab population; do you mean allow a Palestinian state to have part of Jerusalem? fine with me. also fine with me if Israel stopped building settlements, and made land swaps to the Palestinians. All good. I would love for Israel to be able to stop the blockade. I would love it if the people of Gaza had enough food, and jobs, and schools and so on.

but there’s a cause/effect. In 2005 Israel left Gaza, and did all the things you said it should do. In 2006, Hamas won the elections. In 2007, Hamas militarily took over the Gaza Strip. Israel’s blockade was in response to the hamas takeover.

So then the question is “what is Hamas?” And as far as that goes, Hamas’ intentions are as clear now as they were then–the destruction of Israel in the long run, killing Israelis in the short run.

the problem is that “peaceful intent” doesn’t mean anything to hamas. Hamas explicitly rejects Israel’s existence. So let me ask you, in all honesty. Let’s say that Israel ended the blockade, and allowed hamas to import whatever it wanted (including, of course, better rockets). And let’s say that Israel took down the Gaza security fence. What do you think Hamas and Islamic Jihad would do in response to those “tangible moves for peace?”

Really, in the scenario you call for–and which by the way, I absolutely agree on with the PA–in which Israel makes some bold moves, what do you think Hamas will do in response?

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you are absolutely right, that is what the Palestinians should do.

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I would hope, if the moves were made that you suggest, that Hamas would become irrelevant.

One can only pray.

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but again, Israel did do some of those moves, and Hamas actually took power. Hamas has broad support among many Palestinians in Gaza, and–more importantly–it controls Gaza. So even people who don’t care for it don’t really have much of a say.

Keep in mind as well that whatever concessions Israel should make, it shouldn’t–and won’t-allow a Right of Return–which means that some Palestinians will still want to fight.

And of course, Hamas–and those who support it–are not primarily motivated by political concerns but religious ones–read the Hamas charter.

so It’s great to say that you “hope” that Hamas would become irrelevant, and I too would pray, but knowing what you do about Hamas and its basis of support in Gaza, I’ll ask again–what do you actually think Hamas and Islamic Jihad would do in the circumstances you suggest?

31

A two state solution has failed and the best that could happen is to open up and eventually break down the borders. This would be to everyones advantage. It would be painful at first, but the struggle would eventually come to an end. Nobody can know what that actually could be, but criminal acts would become law enforcement issues not war crime. The issue will never be resolved on practically any two state model. The right of return would seem to be essential.

32

All this angst about Hamas. If I recall correctly, Hamas is largely an Israeli creation, when they supported its formation as a means of causing trouble for the then current Palestinian leadership. I will investigate this further, but it seems to me that the State of Israel had a hand in creating this monster.

Further, it is now my belief that if it didn’t exist, Israel would need to invent it, as a scapegoat justifying its territorial expansion. It is now clear that State of Israel has been trying to string out world opinion, stating that it has an interest in a peace settlement with the Palestinians, where no such interest actually exists. As one commenter above has observed, the status quo favors The State of Israel, treats Palestinians as second class human beings, and this is what the majority of Israelis want. They have elected the current government, and they are accountable.

Also, if fine PR commenters such as Uberjude did not exist, the State of Israel would need to invent them. Keeping American public opinion under control is clearly a priority for the State of Israel. It is a difficult job to keep Americans from seeing what is now clearly in front of their noses.

And finally, what is up with TPM? Why do articles like this disappear so quickly from the front page. If I hadn’t bookmarked this article, I might not have been able to get back to it. Josh Marshall, can you help in explaining this?

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33

Don’t get carried away, dude. Israel is still the obstacle to peace. It holds the power. It’s removal from Gaza was a mere strategic withdrawal and it is still the world’s largest prison. Israel controls Gaza, not any Palestinian authority. To state otherwise is disingenuous, at best: an intentional lie at worst.

Settlements continue to be built on Palestinian land and the theft of land continues, unabated. Much of Israeli leadership and governmental policy is motivated as much by religious concerns as any Islamic extremist. The racist rhetoric prevalent on Israeli social media and IDF soldiers’ blogs rival that of any jihadist.

Again, read Edward Said for a true intellectual discussion of the fraud that has been the “peace process” at the expense of the Palestinian people.

And if Jews have a “right of return” why shouldn’t Palestinians?

But if it makes you feel better as a “chosen” tribalist, continue to hold onto the mythology of “little, peaceful” Israel. I suggest you try explaining that to the parents of the dead Palestinian children.

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34

You actually recall incorrectly. Hamas was a Palestinian creation, which, in the '80’s, Israel was usually content with ignoring. That is, Israel didn’t create it, but a quarter of a century ago, it at times favored it over the PLO as a rival for Palestinian support.

And I love you guys who talk about how “If only Hamas didn’t exist, Israel would create it.” But it does exist. It’s real. And any effort to make peace needs to address that reality.

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35

Jews have a right of return in Israel; Palestinians should have right of return in a Palestinian state, not in Israel. Remember, two state solution, one Israeli, one Palestinian.

I didn’t say anything about Israel being peaceful.

Israel controls Gaza? Really? So there are Israeli security forces that patrol the streets? There are Israeli prisons that hold opponents of the regime in Gaza? There are Israeli schools in Gaza, and Israeli influence in the UN schools in Gaza? Are the gov’t employees in Gaza paid by the Israelis?

Israel controls Gaza’s borders, Hamas controls Gaza.

But I notice you still can’t answer a simple question. you have stated that all we need to achieve peace is for Israel to take unilateral action–but what do you think Hamas and Co. will do if Israel were to take those steps?

It’s a simply question–I’d think someone who calls himself “toughguy” wouldn’t be afraid of answering it.\

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Found this article:

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37

First, Israel controls Gaza’s border, controls resources going in and out, controls funds, controls food & water, and regularly attacks the area, kills its inhabitants, and destroys infrastructure. This certainly qualifies as control. That the prisoners get to “manage” some affairs does not constitute control in any real sense.

But as someone who calls himself “uberjuden”, I would expect that your “chosen” tribalism would not allow you to pierce the fog of your selective myopia.

I suspect that if real steps for peace, including dismantlement of settlements, return of land, and movement to the 1967 borders were made, then the Palestinian people would be eager partners for peace.

However, Israel has no intention of doing any of those things. The staus quo is just too damn comfortable for them.

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38

Any effort for peace requires removal of the Likudist faction in Israel. This reality needs to be addressed.

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39

Read the article, and you will see it says exactly what I said–hamas is a Palestinian creation that israel in the 1980’s turned a blind eye to. That hardly makes Hamas a creation of Israel. Furthermore, you will notice that whatever apathy Israel had towards Hamas ended by the late 80’s.
In other words, all this article does is reiterate what I said.

40

So in other words, everything I said about what goes on inside of Gaza is true, that Hamas controls what goes on inside Gaza.

I didn’t ask about the Palestinian people, many of whom would like to just have peace and some control over their lives. I asked about Hamas. If Israel were to end the blockade and take down the security fence around Gaza, what do you think Hamas would do. Come on, toughguy, is it really so difficult to answer a simple question?