Discussion: May To UK Lawmakers: Give Me More Time To Get A Brexit Deal

Some British acquaintances who I once considered fairly sensible and sober people have taken to the “why is the EU being so mean to us?” line. Like… you’re leaving! Why would they be nice? Why would they give you the time of day? You’re trying to kick over their sand castle and then you complain that they defend it. Are you mad? Are you a child?

Brexiteers are no less mindless than MAGA wallists, and yet there is no major political party in the UK which is able to stand as one and say “No, this is fundamentally a very stupid idea, and we oppose it completely”. Country-wide insanity.

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As near as I can tell (as an outsider), there are enough anti-immigration xenophobes in Britain to be a political force that has to be reckoned with. They see their Yes vote on Brexit as legitimate. Naturally they don’t want another vote, because at this point they’d probably lose. And half of them would probably put up with some temporary economic chaos with a no-deal Brexit, if it meant fewer browns moving into the neighborhood.

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I think about, but take no comfort in, how much more stupid Great Britain is than the U.S. They win some kind of prize for self-inflicted injury.

Granted, we have the Orange Stain, but if they do not reverse themselves they are headed for the dark ages and The EU would be smart to not cut them any special deals.

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for one - I think you got it right in your first line -

Also - the ONLY path for her own continued political existence is to keep going down the Brexit road since she has cast her lot with that crowd and left herself no path to be able to rise up to advocating a new position -

Basically England got drunk and demanded a divorce from the EU … and the EU said 'well that is disappointing - but OK … pack your bags and don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out" England is still hungover and the crazy side of the brain is still railing away at any idea of reconsideration - consequences be damned - even in the face of great devastation - largely because the conservatives are so freaking ideological and egotistical that they would rather be captains of a sinking, stinking, decaying ship - than passengers on a gleaming luxury liner… they are acting in their own short term interest - at the expense of the nation’s and the world’s long term interest.

Thoughtful leaders who place the fate of their nation above their individual partisan factional politics are clearly not present in the conservative circles of British politics.

It is as though there was a murder trial - one that was corrupted with disinformation and lies and false evidence - but a conviction was gained … Now even with a mountain of evidence of malfeasance & distortion - The pro-Brexit forces are screaming for the execution - and railing away against any reconsideration - no, no the verdict must be carried out - evidence of fraud & dire consequences be damned - - we cheated fair & square!

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I think our mistake may be bigger than theirs, but we shall see. If we repeat our error (heaven help us), then I think we win the championship of self-inflicted injury. That is a prize I would prefer to be awarded to another country.

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Quite

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Forward, the Brexit Brigade! (ht BDL)

Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered.

Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

White papers to right of them,
Pollsters to left of them,
Presslords in front of them
Volleyed and thundered…

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I do have to say, that the Brits are keeping American from being the world’s complete laughing stock. But the reporting on the issue being a “brexit deal” really does the American public a major disservice. What is being negotiated now is simply the exit into a temporary arrangement. That is the easy part, what is not being done now is the shape of England’s future relationship with the EU (or the world for that matter). It really helps to understand what is going on (not easy to do given how polarized the UK media is). So my TLDR… :imp:

First, it helps to understand the key issue. The EU has no internal tariffs and one set of origin rules. It is like the US, in that there are no internal market barriers.

While England is an Island, Northern Ireland (which is part of the UK) and Ireland have a land border. And it is governed by an agreement called the “Good Friday Agreement” which ended the civil war that had gone on in Northern Ireland for about 30 years (killing thousands) between Catholics and Protestants. That agreement requires an open border, to promote interactions and economic growth, and as a result of that open border, most of the trade with Northern Ireland is with Ireland, not England.

The Irish Government, and the Catholics in Northern Ireland will agree to nothing that shuts the boarder between Northern Ireland and Ireland. It would not only hurt the economy, but it might cause the civil war to start again. The E.U. is a party to the good Friday agreement and like England and Ireland has guaranteed that agreement.

After the Brexit vote, Teressa May to try to keep the Brexitiers happy laid down a set of “red line” (to make the hard core Brexiters in the Tory Party happy) which include (1) England will be able to forge its own trade deals and (2) will not be subject to EU rules. To give an example, England might sign a deal with the US which allowed the import of American Chlorinated Chicken and GMO crops, both of which are cheaper, but not allowed in the EU. England might also lower health standards for its meat industry (allowing e.g. the use of large amounts of antibiotics to promote animal growth) allowing England to produce cheaper meat.

This means that post Brexit, absent customs checks, England would be a route for goods that undercut EU goods on cost to be smuggled in. The EU has made clear that under no circumstances will this ever be allowed. Any economist will tell you this is absolutely necessary, you can’t have free trade when the involved countries have different rules and tariffs. E.g. imagine what would happen in the US suddenly let all Mexican food come into the US without it meeting (or being checked for) US standards and without any tariffs to compensate for the cheaper wages in Mexico. Lots of people would buy the cheaper Mexican food, putting US farmers out of a job.

So Theresa May’s “red-lines” require border checks and enforceable regulation of the trade between a post-Brexit England and the rest of the UE.

The Irish boarder though presents a key problem, to which there are only three real solutions if you want a form of Brexit, (a) impose checks on the border, with different rules on both sides of the border, cutting down on trade dramatically (b) have Northern Ireland stay in the EU for trade purposes, and have the customs checks between Northern Ireland and England, or (c) have England stay in the EU for trade/regulation post Brexit (i.e. do what Norway and Switzerland have done, stay in the customs union, but not the EU and in turn not have a vote when rules/regulations are created). This is called the “Norway Option”

The morons pushing Brexit assumed that the EU allow an imaginary option D (Boris Johnson’s “have your cake and eat it too” plan, or a “Unicorn” as it is derisively called) and the EU would be so willing to reach a deal with mighty England that they would just cave and allow an open border and the leakage of trade and flow of non-EU compliment goods and services into Ireland and the rest of the EU. This obviously was/is a non-starter and its stupid to have ever believed that was possible. The Brexiters fall back was to suggest some type of hokey future “technological fix” that no one can explain and/or for the Irish would just give in and do what England wants, since after all England is a bigger country and can push around Ireland (some of the Brexitiers were quoted saying that Ireland would just have to leave the EU and follow English rules to solve the problem of the border).

Well Europe made very clear from the start that they were sticking with Ireland, and as such the reality of the situation is that it is a small insignificant country of 55 million people against a block of 450 million people with an economy that is probably 6-7x bigger. The EU has spent 18 months telling England that there was no way that there would EVER be an agreement that allowed option D (unmanaged trade across the Northern Ireland border) or (A) imposed a hard border.

Second, Terresa May has another major problem, which is that she lacks a majority in Parliament since she called a snap election in 2017 where she lost her majority and her government is propped up by ten hard right Protestant MPs from the DUP party in Northern Ireland. The DUP was the party of “business” in Northern Ireland, but also the group whose one key principle is that nothing can come between Northern Ireland and England. [And note one of the biggest ironies of all ironies is that May has a margin in parliament of only about 6-7 votes when the DUP votes with her. But part of the reason she has this very small margin is that Sinn Fein (which advocates for Northern Ireland breaking away from the UK and joining Ireland) holds seven parliamentary seats from Northern Ireland (the DUP has 10) but has refused to take them up. So the voting totals that are anti-Brexit and anti-May (which Sinn Fein is strongly, since it will hurt the northern Ireland economy and pull Northern Ireland further away from Ireland and they hate May) would be seven votes higher if Sinn Fein was not so f’n stubborn. So basically the Northern Irish on BOTH side of the catholic/Protestant divide are a major part of the problem, and are directly (DUP) and indirectly, and against what they say they want (Sinn Fein) propping up May.]

The bottom line is that any discussion of option B (keeping only Northern Ireland in the EU) would cause the DUP to immediately vote against Theresa May, causing her government to fall, and new elections. May is afraid she would lose these elections, allowing the left wing loon Jeremy Corbin (who would like Northern Ireland to leave and join Ireland) into power.

So Brexit (as seen by the hard core Tory Brexiters) is possible (if still very damaging to England in every way) and would be agreed to by the EU only if Northern Ireland stayed in the customs union and as such there was no hard border. However, not only would option B cause May’s government to fall, but over time it would separate Northern Ireland economically from England and attach it to Ireland (what the DUP fears) eventually probably breaking apart the U.K.

The result of all of this was that the withdrawal agreement punted on the issue, and the EU conceded (note it was movement by the EU to this position) and agreed to allow the ENTIRE U.K. in the EU trading area until the UK and the EU reached a future deal. This is the “backstop”, which obligates the U.K. to follow the good Friday agreement, and keep the border open, by staying in the EU Customs Union (i.e. not strike trade deals with others) and following all EU rules until a future mutual agreement is reached.

The problem with this is that any future agreement faces the same three choices, none of which were agreeable during 18 months of negotiations. The EU is not going to allow an open border that is a backdoor to evasion of EU rules/tariffs and as such unfair competition nor a “hard border” with checks between Ireland and England (which the Irish vetoed, and the EU is sticking with their member not the country that voted to leave). And the option of going to checks between Northern Ireland and England (option B) was unacceptable to the DUP and also right wing Tories -the folks pushing Brexit - as it would at some point cause Northern Ireland to drift away from the UK. And May’s red-lines (to allow England to negotiate what May and Brexitiers argue would be great trade deals, as if England with 55 million people can get a better deal negotiating with each country than can a block of 512 million people with a market that is 8 times greater than England alone, and end the free movement of Europeans into England) ruled out option C (the “Norway option”).

So what May really put before parliament was a plan to give up voting rights/control/seat at the table in the EU, $39B in payments for incurred future EU costs in return for a “temporary” arrangement to keep the same rules (option C) that England was already following, until a future deal was worked out. The problem is that any future deal faced the same exact issues with the Irish boarder, and they would be as unsolvable tomorrow as today. The DUP and Brexitiers all voted no since they know that the only way out of this “no control/no say” half-way house would be either (b) selling out Northern Ireland and leaving it in the EU, as England broke free or (c) making the temporary back-stop permanent by staying in the Customs Union (but having no vote in the EU, i.e. the “Norway Option” of being a rules taker).

So what May put before parliament, and is still pushing, is nothing but a fraud. It is designed to allow – at great cost to the English economy, and by giving up control – May and the Tories to claim they had “delivered Brexit” but provided not a single one of the claimed benefits of Brexit (except perhaps allowing some theoretical control over movement of Europeans into England) while locking England into a set of market and trade rules that they would be unable to have a say over. The only people who voted for her plan were (1) those who were unable to face reality that what the voters had been sold by Boris Johnson and the Vote Leave Fraudsters and their Russian backers and had voted for was impossible, or (2) were unwilling to risk the almost certain economic devastation of leaving w/o a deal, and were willing to accept what was really a stealth Norway Option (itself a worse deal than EU membership) to try to put Brexit in the rear view mirror. But since their is no real possible deal that does not split the Tory party, she just keeps trying to run down the clock, hoping that the rapidly increasing damage to the UK’s economy forces Parliament to vote for her “deal”

And while parliament passed the amendment saying that Parliament did not support a no deal, but it voted down and amendment (put forward by a labor MP Cooper) which would have actually prevented leaving w/o a deal. While the press in the US said that this was “parliament asserting itself” it is nothing of the sort. Mostly because Labor is run by Corbyn, who really supports leaving the EU since he sees it as a capitalist club, and has been wishy-washy, Parliament voted down the Labor amendment to either go the Norway route or have a new referendum AND a binding amendment preventing leaving without a deal.

The result of this is that what the English really did was vote to go back to the EU and demand that the EU let England unilaterally ditch the Irish backstop at will. Yet, this is exactly what the EU refused to do over 18 months of negotiations, for good reasons, and over the last week the EU has refused again. It is a vote that was entirely divorced from reality, and not surprisingly the EU said within about 5 minutes that it was a non-starter. The last week (as the deadline to England leaving on March 29 ticks down) has been spent with the EU telling Theresa May there is no new deal in the offing, and the Brexiters and May accusing the EU of being unreasonable, when it is actually the English who are not just unreasonable, but absolutely crazy. Meanwhile businesses are leaving, taking high paying jobs to Ireland, the Netherlands, Germany, and France.

May will do anything, and screw England anyway she can, in the process, to keep the Conservative party from splitting apart. She is running the risk that by running down the clock she will be able to force reasonable people to eventually vote for her deal to avoid a no-deal exit which would be total chaos and cost England about 15% of its GDP. She is quite literally holding England hostage. But again the silly thing is that assuming Labor caves and votes for her deal, the very next day the same fights would break out over what the future trade deal would look like, since her deal is supposed to be a transitional deal until permanent trade deals are worked out.

The folks who are supposed to be the adults in her government (her Chancellor Hammond, and her business secretary, and her defense secretary) who are those connected to business have the power to change the equation, and some of them (such as the defense and business secretaries) have threatened to resign and vote against the government to avoid a no deal Brexit, but so far they are sticking with May. They are making statements (without adding their names) that by allowing May to fall on her face one more time, and come back having been rejected by the EU, they hope to cause her to see reason, and drop her red lines and/or allow a new referendum.

One of three things will happen, (1) the purported adults stick with May, and there is a no deal Brexit, (2) market pressure and the fall in the pound gets so bad that the “adults” bail on May, and she allows a free vote on options, with a vote to either hold a new referendum or going with a permanent Norway type deal passing (and Brexit is put off allow that option to be explored), or (3) her government falls, and if the EU does not allow a delay, England exits the EU w/o a deal and w/o a government.

In the US we are lucky to have a competent opposition, and a lot of democrats who are not using Donald Trump as an excuse to go off to the loonie left (unfortunately some are) but rather as a rallying cry.

So contrary to what the US media is saying, the English have not suddenly come to their senses, and the clock continues to tick down.

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It seems fairly plausible at this point that the United Kingdom will crawl back to the EU and adopt the Euro in ten or fifteen years, not in a position to demand founder’s perks, but hat-in-hand just wanting the default buy-in. I will laugh and laugh. You guys already had a special arrangement, and you fucked it up anyway.

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Sadly, it appears that we, as a nation, are not smart enough nor mature enough to reason our way through this challenge - if we are to emerge form this predicament, we will be entirely dependent upon the magical emergence of some sort of shrewd, insightful, engaging & charismatic, selfless & visionary leader who will capture the hearts and minds of a strong majority of the nation … and the challenge to the emergence of such a leader is further compounded by the pushing and shoving of all of the individuals who fancy themselves as the embodiment of all of these attributes.

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Cheese means cheese, tho

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The tragedy of it is that many Brexit voters voted that way as a lark.

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GIANT COMMENT OF DOOM

Y’all ought to actually read this whole comment. It’s good.

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What’s the old saw about madness being defined as performing the same action over and over and expecting a different result? May is either incompetent or insane.

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Another major problems with the first referendum:

It wasn’t at all clear what the Leave side was actually voting for. It’s become clear since then Leave voters ranged from those who wanted a Lexit to fanatical Brexiteers who wanted a hard Brexit, and every combination in between.

The closest May has been able to come to explaining what Leavers actually wanted is her “Brexit means Brexit” mantra, which should be obvious to anyone with 2 gray cells, does not even reach Trumps level of coherence.

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Another referendum gives this whole nonsense too much credit.

The UK is a parliamentary democracy. It isn’t a direct democracy. There’s a good reason for that.

Parliament needs to do its job and cancel this fantasy.

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One of the bigger problems the UK has is how it implements its ‘balanced media’ requirement in the weeks running up to an election. The media overlords have figured out how to work around this in a number of ways, the result being the Tory candidates get interrupted less, get more opportunity to trumpet their policy agenda, and are made to appear more competent than they really are (coughcoughTheresaMayI’mlookingatyoucough).

Had the 2017 pre-election coverage included discussions of topics more associated with Labour, fewer so-called ‘independent’ views from right-wing funded think tanks, and less propping up of B-quality individuals, and more true progressives on pundit panels – in other words, actually balanced – the UK would still have a minority government, but one led by Labour.

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… yes - at the voting locations - as people were about to enter the booth

  • there was a lot of …“Here - hold my beer!”
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failure to secure a deal in good time was “negligence on behalf of our political institutions and leaders.”

Counterpoint: a massive disinformation campaign to mislead rank-and-file UK voters to reject EU membership is economic sabotage, and constitutes an act of war. If only we knew who was behind it…

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The reason labor lost the 2017 vote is that Corbyn is a left wing loon. Full stop. He is a closet brexit supporter, has palled around with terrorists, and btb still supports Maduro in Venezuela, and has tax policies that take a hammer to the middle class educated voters that labor needs to win (the folks that ‘new-labor’ won over to get 12 yers in power). Opinion polls have consistently shown labor can win, but only if they ditch Corbyn.

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