Not saying this issue is without any complexity, but anyone who thinks the Trump/Sessions DOJ is doing this for noble reasons is on crack. This is part of their concerted effort to undermine affirmative action and racial justice, period.
If it keeps blacks and hispanics from getting into harvard, DoJ will even make common cause with asians.
Sessions argued the schoolâs use of a âpersonal rating,â which includes highly subjective factors such as being a âgood personâ or âlikeability,â may be biased against Asian-Americans.
Um, and THIS is what Asian-Americans want supporting their arguments???
Pardon me, because I am fully in support of reducing bias against Asian-Americans, and I donât want to be insensitive to their legitimate concerns.
But this whole thing seems like a thinly-veiled attempt by white folks to latch on to Asian-American inequality issues as a way to destroy diversity initiatives for ALL ethnic and racial minorities. Like, âfinally we can get rid of affirmative action without seeming to be racist!â
Pitting minority groups against each other is an age-old technique. I hope it doesnât work here. It seems like the result they are asking for would only increase the advantage for white students. If Iâm wrong about that, please enlighten meâŚ
They had better be careful what they wish for. Every year a number of students are admitted to Harvard on a legacy basis - there was one mediocrity in my class who was an 11th generation admission. If they have to put more and more emphasis on pure academic measures and want to continue to have a diverse student body itâs likely not Blacks and Hispanics who will get cut out as Asians increase. How do they think that W. Bush made it into Yale, which is more a republican bastion, or trump into Wharton? Demonstrably not on academic merit.
This is a much tougher issue than snark will allow. The problem is right now in American history Asian American students are out performing all other ethnic groups. In 20 years it might be another ethnic group. What happens to America if all of our PhDs from the same ethnic group. I am not sure admission policies at Harvard are where you start to solve the problem. Maybe we should be encouraging all of our students to do their homework from first grade on. .
Agree it is a tremendously complex issue - I canât help but smile at the thought of a lot of rich white kids not getting into their preferred ivy league institution because they have been edged out by an Asian-American. There is a rich vein of irony in there somewhere that I am just not smart enough to be clever about.
I wonder about the personal rating, how is it that as a group they rate the lowest? What is it based on? It has to be highly subjective and probably should be discontinued.
Nerdy Smart Asians?
Although ti may have been modified, Harvard likes to consider non-academic factors such as community service, sports, chess clubs, musical ability etc. in itâs aim to provide a diverse environment for its students. Itâs never been just about grades despite the image that is often projected. There is a certain minimum bar, which is basically does the applicant have the wherewithal to do the work, beyond that they look to have a rich opportunity too beexposed to different ideas, cultures and talents. Itâs part of their âgestaltâ.
If a larger portion of Asian-American applicants have been âTiger Momâdâ into grinding for grades and test scores than have other groups then might well, as a group, have a lower personal rating. Or it could be conscious, but more likely unconscious, bias - the lawsuit may well illuminate just how much of each is a factor.
Even back in the '60âs Harvard could have easily filled its classes with students who scored a perfect 1600 on the SATs (I wasnât one of those) but chose to weigh other factors in furtherance of having classes reflect a more realistic view of the world albeit with a higher average academic ability. Today it would be even easier to fill their seats with that type, but the approach they employ has served them well for many years and so probably hasnât changed that much.
Yup, fuck white peopleâŚI wonder why they vote Republican? Why donât they vote for Dems?
I think you miss the crux of the issue. The issue is that the students being bumped off the admissions lists are Asian-American and they are being bumped off for African-American students.
No, I actually got it. I was extending their contentions to the illogical conclusion that because of outperforming, Asian-Americans will crowd out whites as well as other minorities.
The best thing I have read on this was in VOX - for those who are interested
I wonder what that does to the student who found it necessary to work after school?
The stereotype is that theyâre quiet grinders, follow the rules, are used to operating under heavy parental pressure but not as used to thinking creatively or âoutside the box,â donât like bending rules or making waves, and lack âcharismaâ or âleadershipâ qualities. Yes, the latter especially are highly subjective and subject to unconscious/cognitive bias, but as an AA myself I can say the stereotype is not completely without basis, though letting it influence admissions decisions is dangerous, to say the least.
That said, I havenât studied the lawsuit or any of the underlying empirical data, so Iâve no clear sense of how much (if at all) Asian Americans are actually getting âpenalizedâ by this stereotype. And yes, I too find white folksâ motives in supporting this lawsuit highly suspect.
Agree with you and @ronbyers on that. As a woman in engineering, I benefited from affirmative action. But the only reason I even went for an engineering degree was because discrimination based on sex was legal, which had made it impossible for me to get another job as a car mechanic. I always had mixed feelings about affirmative action despite having benefited from it. It placed a cloud over my perceived competency because it could legitimately be said that I âonly got that job [or other opportunity ] because of affirmative actionâ.
The legitimate role of affirmative action is to break down barriers blocking all access to a minority group. But once those barriers have been breached, the better Phase Two strategy is to bolster role models. Celebrating successful women, blacks, native americans, and LGBT members of society does more to open opportunities once the barrierâs been breached. I was glad to see affirmative action made illegal in California for institutions receiving public funds.
In that black community thereâs a stereotype that education is not valued and that black students who achieve academically are chastised and made pariah. Is that still true and if so, is that a greater impediment to scholastic achievement than âracismâ?
At the same time we need to provide appropriate instruction and curriculum for the kids at the top of the class. The kids whose 2nd grade buddies are reading The Magic Tree House while he/she is reading Narnia and pointing out that, âYou know, in this story Aslanâs a lot like Godâ is not going to be inspired by 2nd grade homework. Not inspired leads to long term ignoring assignments covering material they learned 3 years ago. Itâs a problem.
Thereâs a choice here: College society can be intentionally set up to mirror, in its proportions, the society as a whole. The benefit here is that kids are educated for the real world, socially speaking. Or college society can be set up to reward particular behavior by teenagers, whether itâs in focusing on tests, grades, community service, creative endeavors ⌠not just in addition to mirroring the proportions of society as a whole, but totally ignoring those proportions.
The scientific truth of it is, as predictors of college performance, neither high school grades nor test scores correlates in any meaningful way beyond the Freshman year. Itâs not that thereâs nothing to them. But thereâs not much. Yet the governmentâs stance here is that nothing but grades and test scores should matter. If this lets in âtoo manyâ Asians, at least it will keep most of the brown people out, the government reasons.
Many âdiscriminatoryâ practices have to do with legacy, sports, and big donor preferences. A lot of schools give preferences to applicants from outside their geographical area. Some schools give preferences to students whose parents didnât go to college. Thereâs just a ton of stuff besides academics that gets put into the mix. Schools want a stimulating mix of students.
Personally, I think there should be a beer pong aptitude test, to sift out the kids who are just going to sit in the library and study all the time.