Discussion for article #238310
This is a good article, with real sources and historical background. But two claims are poorly supported. “But today, many Americans prefer to see themselves as consumers of wealth, as opposed to producers…” Where is that data showing that any, let alone many, Americans prefer to see ourselves as “consumers of wealth”? Yes, it’s often repeated that we’re “a consumer society.” But I have never known anyone who has said anything like “I prefer to see myself as a consumer.” Are there polls? Or is this just a lazy generalization based on seeing that Americans like to shop? Because Americans also, it seems, like to work, or else it’s hard to square with our putting in more hours than any other first-world country, and so many here having scorn for the jobless.
Then there’s the conclusion, “All Sanders can do in a race with Clinton, who is almost surely too well-funded, organized, and powerful a player to beat…” That was said before Obama took the nomination from her too. Could it be right this time? Without further supporting evidence or argument, it’s an untenable claim.
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Two weeks ago Senator Claire McCaskill, a Hillary Clinton enemy-turned-supporter, told Morning Joe’s audience what they already knew, that Bernie Sanders is “frankly, a socialist.”
McCaskill is an irrelevant cow hanging on to her political life by one hoof. She’s flailing wildly for someone to grab onto, and that someone is Clinton. And she’s holding on for dear life.
Sanders has never to my knowledge advocated government control of the means of production, which is the only sense the word “socialist” can be used as an insult. We are all the Bernie Sanders type of socialist, even this cud-chewer. We avail ourselves of all manner of public services. We enjoy what we share in ownership in our pubic parks at Federal, state, and local levels. It is the right wing who have misappropriated the language, turning it into a scourge as they did with “liberal,” and this unseemly ungulate has not a second thought using Luntzian language if it’ll mean improving her standing with the presumptive nominee.
Utter filth. Or in her case, udder filth. Mooooo-ve over, Bossie, and feel the Bern.
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“makes as little sense as saying Reagan was for smaller government.”
Aw, geez, ANOTHER one? Anyone else so easily manipulated might want to check the “Grace Commission.” – the most thorough attempt to cut spending ever completed. Instead of sitting on their butts in “hearings” – hundreds of hands-on business managers went out into the actual departments to see where spending could most easily be cut, without damaging estabkished laws and requirements, The proposal, if enacted, would have reduced today’s deficit by nearly $5 trillion. So what happened?
First the bill was buried, in a REPUBLICAN Senate, which is when Reagan began promoting a Line Item Veto. Later, when Democrats controlled the Senate it came to a vote, overwhelming defeated by both parties, How dare anyone tamper with both parties’ ability to loot the federal treasury to buy middle-class votes. (gasp).
And that’s how it came to pass that the rich now subsidizes over 40% of the entire share of personal income taxes for the core middle class ($40k-100k) – which BOTH parties had a roughly equal role in creating. (85% of the Bush tax cuts went to taxpayers under $250,000 gross income … who had been paying only 45% of the tax. The biggest wealth redistribution since FDR!
Argle bargle stuff-the-people-who-tell-me-what-to-think-told-me-to-think blargh.
The Grace Commission’s savings predictions for its proposals were pure bullshit pulled straight out of their asses the way the Republican core belief that cutting taxes creates more revenue than they cost is pure bullshit. CBO did an analysis of their numbers and found that the “savings” were largely illusory.
http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/84doc08b.pdf
And then there was the one big management change recommended by the Grace Commisison the GOP killed and today treats as heresy:
The largest management saving would derive from augmenting the Internal Revenue Service’s (IRS) staffing for collection of delinquent taxes and examination of tax returns, and from the disposition of tax cases brought before the U.S. Tax Court. CBO estimated savings amounting to $3.7 billion for 1985-1987 (and $13.0 billion over the five-year period 1985- 1989) for this set of proposals, compared to $10.7 billion in three-year savings estimated by the PPSSCC. These proposals were among those suggested by Mr. Grace as appropriate for quick action.
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“Likely” as opposed to"almost surely" would have been more supportable of a claim…
Make no mistake though… I am a reliable NH primary vote for Bernie and in the “likely” scenario Hillary is the nominee I will “almost surely” vote for her.
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This article is chock full of lazy generalizations. I’m not sure why you thought it was good.
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The word “Socialist” should not be saved, but buried in the same cemetery together with the words Communist, Nazi, Fascist and the like.
A 2011 Pew Research Center poll found that 18-29 year-olds were more likely to prefer “socialism” to “capitalism.”
Of course those on that age range prefer “socialism” to “capitalism”, most of them are still in universities and have not yet have a work history. Thing change a lot when they see the amount of money is taken away in taxes from their paychecks or business. It’s true what Pew Research Center has found out for the 18-29 age range, but see what happens when the age range is 30 and up:
http://www.people-press.org/files/2011/12/12-28-11-2.png
At that point the word “socialism” is wrapped in a crescendo of negativity.
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“Is Bernie Sanders Too Radical for America?” http://prospect.org/article/bernie-sanders-too-radical-america
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“Is Capitalism on Trial?” http://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/is-capitalism-on-trial
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“Bernie Sanders’ Socialism is as American as Apple Pie” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-dreier/bernie-sanders-socialism-_b_7210120.html
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Claire is woman, not a cow. And a Democrat, mostly. I don’t agree with her bashing of Bernie, but I wouldn’t insult her in that vein. She has been a fighter for Democratic causes in the Senate, and as one of only 16 female Democratic Senators, I believe she deserves a bit more respect than the level of bovine comparisons.
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Funny that the people who most hate socialism are the ones most reliant on it every single day of their lives.
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There is wealth redistribution going on, but it is towards the wealthiest Americans.
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The way people use the word ‘Socialism’ these days, they actually mean “Democracy” If property were the only right that existed then that would be it. But Governments are formed so they can collect property from individuals and use it for the common good, for things like self defense and roads and education. Well if you give just ANYONE the right to vote, then you are allowing people without property to control the government. SOCIALISM!!!
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Jesus I hate Claire McCaskill. We get that you’re from a back-asswards red state and you need to say stupid things in order to not be defeated next time, but please just shut the hell up. For all our sakes.
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This is just an example of embracing what you are. If you DON’T do it, you get hammered. Look at Mitt Romney back in 2012.
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People who only consume wealth and don’t produce any usually end up eating dirt.
The fact that people equate socialism with communism is prevalent but it wasn’t that way in the 30’s.
I come from North Dakota, the ONLY state in the country that has a state bank, which is about as socialist as you can get and nobody there is being locked up into boxcars and taken to a FEMA concentration camp…well, I haven’t lived there since the middle of Reagan’s second term but I’m pretty sure it’s still true.
Why do they have it? Because in the Depression, farmers needed loans and banks were either failing right and left or wouldn’t loan them any money.
So the state did it. I am pretty sure that is an example of what Sanders is talking about.
Everybody got used to the state bank and North Dakota is a reliably Republican state now…just with a socialist bank
If you listen to the Teabaggers, that should be impossible…
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