They are irrelevant to this discussion. Those aren’t people even remotely likely to be in the group Hoyer is talking about. Do you guys have anything other than ad absurdum and “white men” stuff?
1 Like
Not sure about your last line. I was trying to reconcile the views that you and @southerndem were arguing over because what I was reading was that you were saying the same thing but not bridging the vocabulary divide. If I failed in that, please correct me.
And while the other side fanatics are not part of this equation, they are a good example of the purity tests that so many Dems die on the wire for.
Sure thing. I’ll remember not to voice any of my pro-choice support, not to donate to Planned Parenthood anymore and not to vote for pro-choice candidates from here on out. Enjoy your lonely fight against evil white men while the rest of us who would otherwise be your allies walk the fuck away, sick and fucking tired of being lumped in with them.
2 Likes
OK, maybe I read you wrong as well.
Me: I’m strongly pro-choice but see no reason we can’t work with people who have a different position on some things but overall support most of the other things we want. The larger coalition we can build on each issue, the better.
Her: I’m strongly pro-choice and think we should ostracize every pro-life person, even if they could be an ally on other issues. Anyone saying we can work with a pro-lifer in any fashion obviously wants to oppress women and tell them what to do with their bodies.
1 Like
Thought exercise:
Imagine you are an evangelical and you live in the Bible Belt surrounded mostly by other evangelicals. Right or not on the abortion issue you believe with all your heart that any position other than the one you hold will send you to burn in everlasting hellfire for eternity. A vast majority of your neighbors feel the same way. You cannot change this about yourself or them.
However you feel because of your religion you should be welcoming to refugees and that there are too many guns and you want your kids safe at school and you were hoping that one day your kids could afford to go to college at a good school like Liberty University.
Now as Democrats we could:
- Stick to our principles and not allow anyone who is not pro-choice, ensuring you will never have a voice in government and some horrible monster will represent you who will take every benefit from you while enriching themselves, pouring more guns into your community, and generally destroying the country. Your only choices are to vote for the monster or just sit it out and leave politics behind so you can focus more on heaven and things beyond this world. You like harps and loose robes. Clouds are fluffy. The few liberals in your area as always are represented by a Republican and since there is no hope of winning they disengage with politics.
or - Recognize this region does not generally share the official Democratic position on abortion, but we could recruit you to run for office because you are well respected by other Evangelicals and you solidly will protect their interest on this issue with your vote. Now suddenly you and your neighbors have a choice you can reasonably make and suddenly we have the votes in Congress we need for gun control and immigration reform and curtailing gerrymandering and the world can become a better place. The handful of heathen liberals are unhappy you are running but they for the first time have an option to vote for someone who shares at least a few of their values and has an actual possibility of winning. Suddenly you have a political voice and they have a political voice where previously both you and they were completely excluded. You are uncomfortable mingling with sinners but you do your best to be gracious toward them. Maybe one day they will see the light and join you in your beliefs. Women’s rights are important, but they mean little when girls get shot before they can become women or they are left in cages because we don’t have the votes to free them. There are many rights other than abortion rights that are far more important, and they are in significant danger.
1 Like
Actually, there are not.
A woman’s right to control her own body and healthcare decisions, and a doctor’s right to provide healthcare privately to her, are the most basic and fundamental of human rights.
The government has no right to dictate to any women if or when she has to have children.
Women’s healthcare rights can not and must not be negotiated away. Democratic organizations such as the DNC, DCCC, DSCC should not donate a dime to any candidate that does not fully support women’s healthcare rights.
And abortion rights are healthcare rights.
Hoyer should resign.
3 Likes
Because we believe that governments derive their just authority by the consent of the governed. This means the people of a particular area get to decide what kind of representative they want. We cannot force them to share our views or we will push them into the hands of the other party. If we can run a more liberal candidate and win we should, but that is not always possible or realistic.
Both we and Republicans have done so before at the time when this was a divisive issue in the country (much like abortion is now). It was the right thing to do and had we not done so we would not have achieved what we have, like getting out of the Great Depression or winning WWII. Over time, hearts and minds changed and this was no longer a divisive issue and the few holdouts that openly believe such things scurried over to the other party where they are occasionally an embarrassment even to them. We would no longer accept this in someone because we no longer need to. There are no new seats to win by it.
It is a Constitutional Right. You either believe in the Constitution or you don’t and popular opinion ain’t in it when it’s a Right.
Nope sorry. Not even close. Free speech and free press are far more important. Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness rank much higher. Your failure to differentiate between an important right and a fundamental right is the problem. I enjoy my right to healthcare also. Should I lose such a right and doctors were outlawed, I would be upset and would fight for its restoration. However if I must have a choice between outlawing doctors or not having my freedom of speech or right to assemble or a free press or the right to be secure from illegal searches or to not have the state kill me or jail me when I have committed no crime, the doctors are not as fundamental. And yes I realize that lack of medical care could shorten or end my life, but this is about more than just me.
We have children in cages right now. We have children getting shot at school right now. I am not suggesting for a moment that we give up on abortion rights where we have support for it, but if we can win more votes to correct these horrifying human right violations by recognizing that not everyone sees this issue the same way and protect these more fundamental rights, you bet I would.
Even the Constitution bows to the will of the people. It says so…in the Constitution.
Besides Tena, I am not opposed to these rights. Save your indignation for those who are.
I see a child in a cage. Most people agree we should free her and return her to parents. But some people (enough to prevent a majority) will state they will only work together to free her if we also ensure she has the right to legal abortion even though abortion is already legal and they know this is unacceptable to the rest who would vote to free her. And so the child remains in the cage while both sides are convinced of their righteous purity.
1 Like
Women cannot have “Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness” if the government controls their bodies, and forces them to bear unwanted children or die because they can’t get medical treatment or go to prison for having an abortion. An unwanted pregnancy can destroy a woman’s economic opportunities and condemn her and her children to a life of poverty.
Doctors cannot have free speech if they are forbidden under criminal penalties to discuss healthcare options. Doctors will not be able to treat women for other healthcare conditions if the possibility exists that the treatment might cause an abortion as a side effect, and the doctor would go to jail if it did.
And where is your "right to be secure from illegal searches " if the government has access to a woman’s personal medical records so it can be sure that she has not had an abortion?
Abortion rights have nothing to do with children in cages or murders by gun. Nothing at all. Those are crimes and are completely separate issues.
Women’s healthcare rights are fundamental human rights. They are not nice-to-have bargaining chips.
Hoyer should resign.
P.S. “Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" are not guaranteed rights in the Constitution. That phrase is from the Declaration of Independence, and was written by and for white men only.
2 Likes
I would say just have fair elections, and win a big enough majority so that a half dozen oddballs can votie their consciences without being more than a minor nuisance.
Sorry this venturing into the absurd. Women who lived before Roe V Wade would not agree with you. Many of them felt that even with its faults America was a great place. Is it better now, sure. There were rights more important to them than legal abortion and those rights have been endanger before. Many of them fought or otherwise offered support to keep our nation protected right along side with those who did not agree with legal abortion because the rights they had were that important to them, even if many wanted additional rights. Many women who are devoted Evangelicals, Catholics, Muslims, and many others would not agree with you and yes their voice and their vote matters even if I don’t share it. Likewise many African Americans feel America is a pretty great thing even before the civil rights movement.
And above all save the anger for people who would take away rights. I am not one of those.
P.S. If you don’t want to include women or people of color in the Declaration of Independence or are foolish enough to think life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not guaranteed rights, that’s on you. Obviously we don’t have a common frame of reference. I believe as did the suffragettes that those words apply to all people. I recommend you cut back on the caffeine.
1 Like
So glad that you can speak for them. I am sure they enjoyed “Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.” Particularly the ones who died from illegal and unsafe abortions. And the ones who died in childbirth from problematic pregnancies. And the ones who spent their lives in poverty raising children that they did not want or plan for. And the ones that were forced to endure the pregnancies and bear the children of their rapists.
And don’t forget that birth control was also illegal in places until 1965. It was illegal to advertise it. And the pill wasn’t even available until 1960.
But I am sure those were happy worry-free days for women, just like you suggest.
Hoyer should resign.
2 Likes
You don’t need to go to the ridiculous to find your example. Why not use Obama who was against gay marriage WHILE he was president before coming around? I still voted for him, and I’ll bet you did too.
1 Like
Unfortunately, millions of women are anti-choice. How do you bridge that logic?
1 Like
Where the hell are you getting this?! The link you provided speaks only to the corporate world and I suspect those white males are largely Republicans. Are you saying while males should leave the Democratic Party? Here’s my strained argument to fit with yours: the black women of Alabama had no problem supporting Doug Jones for the senate seat.
Excellent example. And one that speaks volumes about Obama.
No problem! They are anti-woman.
Are you joking? For the same reason we still have black republican politicians.
The patriarchy is a hell of a drug.
1 Like