This article is part of TPM Cafe, TPM’s home for opinion and news analysis. It was originally published at The Conversation.
This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://talkingpointsmemo.com/?p=1479078
This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://talkingpointsmemo.com/?p=1479078
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The piece omitted to say that one of the far-right parties in Hungary (a member of the EU and NATO!) has proposed taking land from western Ukraine in the event of a Russian-imposed “settlement.” It suggests to me that the Ottoman occupation of the 16th-17th century permanently affected the Hungarian psyche in the same manner the Mongol Yoke affected Russia – i.e., not in a good way.
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Well, this is depressing.
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Putin’s instincts are insatiable. So are Trump’s.
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Obvious thing is obvious.
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But if the cases of Bosnia and Kosovo are anything to go by, it could on the contrary only whet Russia’s appetite for more territorial claims, and leave Ukraine feeling betrayed.
The only thing to add is this may be more specific to an individual than a group. Sure, Russia has a segment who is all in for taking Ukraine back. But Putin is at the top of that, putting events into place that brought us to this point. He has some sort of fractured vision and he doesn’t care how much blood on either side is shed to see it through.
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Ceding land to Putin merely solidifies his goals and sets up the next conflict. Putin has made it clear that he plans to take all of Ukraine, whether in one piece or ten, all at once or over time. Putin needs to lose this war decisively, including footing the bill to rebuild, and providing the personnel to remove all the landmines from the farm fields.
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A rationale for public consumption and perhaps there are some who believe it although only a genuine fool could believe it more than a temporary solution.
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One of the very best parts of many excellent parts from the old BBC Yes, Minister series:
Sir Humphrey: The fourth, there’s the excuse we used for the Munich agreement. It occurred before certain important facts were known, and couldn’t happen again.
Jim: What important facts?
Sir Humphrey: Well, that Hitler wanted to conquer Europe.
Jim: I thought everybody knew that.
Sir Humphrey: Not the Foreign Office.
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Why would Russia have a “hunger for land”? As it is Russia extends across 11 time zones west to east. Russia has 11% of all the land on earth. It is most of the territory of Asia (29.3%). It’s bigger in territory in Asia than China is. Why does Putin want more land? Agriculture? Oil? Or just naked greed.?
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Demented nationalism. Injured pride.
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A long winded and masturbatory way of saying, “Did you fucking imbeciles learn NOTHING from Chamberlain’s capitulation to Hitler?”
We either shut the fuck up and fight Putin’s Russia in Ukraine, or we’ll be fighting them in Poland, Hungary and any other country Putin gets a hard-on for.
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It’s hard to react to this analysis. Ukrainians see themselves as becoming an advanced European economy with robust institutions. This has happened for many countries of Eastern Europe over the past four decades (Estonia, which shares a border with Russia, is an excellent example). It’s going to be a slog, but if Ukraine achieves average EU economy performance, per capita GDP would be about double that of Russia, and being dominated by an impoverished master makes no sense. Ukraine has an excellent ag sector, some hydrocarbon and mineral deposits, but also a healthy high-tech sector, which is quite a different legacy from most of the Balkan countries seeking to integrate with the EU. At this point, Ukrainian integration with Europe is a done deal, so Russian “hunger” for land is largely irrelevant. Besides, with over 17 million square kilometers of land, about double that of Canada, Russia already has the most land in the world.
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A peace deal with Russia is an oxymoron. It cannot be done. It will be seen as s stepping stone to what they want laid by Western weakness and gullibility. Ukraine must win this war or the world will lose it.
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The “hunger for land” is not just for pure square kilometers. It is for arable, livable land. Russia has an extractive economy with a relevantly low GDP in terms of developed countries. The vast majority of Mother Russia is uninhabitable wasteland. They know this and want better. Unlike post WW2 when the USSR grabbed a bunch of war dilapidated territory that had to be supported by the Russian economy ( which eventually broke the USSR ) they now want the good stuff. Ukraine is a major Eastern Economy not dependent on extraction. As the world moves to energy alternatives to Russian oil and gas Russia sees a bleak horizon. When’s the time you saw " Made in the Russian Federation" on anything?
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I wonder if Putin was abused as a kid.
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Ukraine used to have a major shipbuilding industry, and its ports export grain to the rest of the world. Access to those ports would be useful. Mainly though, it’s the risk of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO.
Putin does not want another NATO country on Russia’s border. He wants buffer countries under his direct or indirect control like Belarus.
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Russia has so few people in the Far East that the Chinese pay to rent farmland on the north side of the Amur River. True, two-thirds of Russian land was in perfmafrost areas, but that is now melting and atmospheric circulation patterns are increasingly screwed up. Coveting land probably means you aren’t alone in coveting it. South Korea and Sweden, for example, sought land rights in recent years for high-tech farming in Ukraine.
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Exactly. And the one and only thing a bully fears is strength. Negotiation is a sign of weakness. We should be sending Ukraine at least 5% of our entire military budget. Boo-hoo. So, the lobbyists for Boeing and Raytheon and the Congressmen they own will have to start eating the cheaper caviar and stick to the less expensive escorts, the ones over 18.
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And after Ukraine, the Baltic Sates and Poland. All parts of “Historic Russia.”
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