The inability to condemn "our side" when they step over the line

The GOP doesn't condemn Trump at all and lessor members of its own except in extremis. The Dems are better at it, but it still hurts.

TPM had an article about American Jews and the incorporation of Jewish Power politicians into Israel's ruling coalition. The operative wording was that American Jews "had concerns" about the action. That is perhaps farther than McConnell goes when Trump drops a pile of shite, but it still not condemnation; it barely registers as "negative".

This inability to self police when in the public eye is understandable. But it ultimately advances actors and actions we abhor.

We here in the Hive are better than the above mentioned groups. We have called each other out when lines have been crossed. Some of us have acknowledged when we were the ones stepping beyond the bounds. Let's keep it up and get better at it.


With all due respect, the article said more than "had concerns".

"raised significant concerns among U.S. Jews, a top leader in the Jewish American community said Sunday."

Malcolm Hoenlein, executive vice chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, said the alliance is “very disturbing” to many American Jews.

“Jewish Power” members see themselves as the ideological heirs of the banned Kach movement, which was outlawed by Israel and the U.S. because of its racist views.

The American Jewish Committee, a major pro-Israel advocacy group, and the pro-Israel lobbying group AIPAC both called Jewish Power “reprehensible.”

Not to mention, the worst American Jews can do is condemn. They can't eject Netanyahu from his party, or vote him out, or impeach him, or investigate him, or limit his powers. So comparing them to Republicans is not fair, because Republicans have the ability to do all of those things to Trump.


Also this is a terribly written wire article, not a TPM article. But let's definitely say that the failure to condemn "our side" is a problem of American Jews while most on the Hive seem to have appointed themselves defense attorney for Justin Fairfax.

I assume that you are referring to this part:

The American Jewish Committee, a major pro-Israel advocacy group, and the pro-Israel lobbying group AIPAC both called Jewish Power “reprehensible.”

The definition of "reprehensible" is:

"deserving censure or condemnation"

But they don't actually censure or condemn, do they? "Reprehensible" is just an synonym for "concerned".

This is so absurd. You are trying to parse the one word quote that some AP writer chose to pull out of their statements.The same writer who said the that Kachism is "outlawed" in the US as a shorthand for being considered a terrorist organization. And even then the best you can come up with is that saying someone deserves condemnation is not the same thing as condemning them.


And you are ignoring the subject of the OP in order to prove its point: the inability to condemn our own.

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Ok. I will address your point straight on. Your obsession with the behavior of american jews is anti-semitic and I condemn you for it.

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Ok here is the actual statement. There is the stern "censure or condemnation" in there:

"They do not reflect the core values that are the very foundation of the State of Israel."

What a kick in the teeth, yes? Not high on specifics though. This is as bad as the AJC can condemn racism?

NEW YORK, Feb. 21, 2019 /PRNewswire/ -- American Jewish Committee (AJC) does not normally comment on political parties and candidates during an election. But with the announcement that Otzma Yehudit ("Jewish Power"), a new political party formed by longtime followers of the late Rabbi Meir Kahane, is now seeking election to the Knesset, we feel compelled to speak out.

The views of Otzma Yehudit are reprehensible. They do not reflect the core values that are the very foundation of the State of Israel. The party might conceivably gain enough votes to enter the next Knesset, and potentially even become part of the governing coalition.

Historically, the views of extremist parties, reflecting the extreme left or the extreme right, have been firmly rejected by mainstream parties, even if the electoral process of Israel's robust democracy has enabled their presence, however small, in the Knesset.

Ultimately, it is up to Israel's Central Elections Commission to determine, as it has done in the past, whether Otzma Yehudit can be listed on the ballot on Election Day.

Looking ahead to April 9, AJC reaffirms our commitment to Israel's democratic and Jewish character, which we hope will be the ultimate winners in every election cycle.

This article in Haaretz says:

And what of the venerable American Jewish Committee? At the time this column was published, their initial response was: no comment. It was a far fall for the organization's principled posture 30 years ago, insisting on the moral equivalence of Farrakhan and Kahane and the moral imperative to let neither’s bigotry go unchallenged.

After publication, the AJC did manage to call Jewish Power "reprehensible" in a statement that seemed primarily concerned with shunting responsibility for its presence or absence in the Knesset onto the Central Elections Commission.

Report me then. Mine the over 10k posts I have made on this forum and prove your charge. Or are you satisfied with simply insulting me?

Your goalposts are shifting fast. Also what exactly did you want from me in terms of addressing the OP?

I did.

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They cant elect him but they sure as hell can cut off the money that goes there.

I have gotten into numerous family arguments about Israel. My parents are of the opinion that you are for Israel no matter what. My opinion is that Israelis have a corrupt right wing government that is doing more harm to the future of the Israeli state than any of its neighbors. These ultra orthodox parties are a bunch of fanatics. It was one of these fanatics that assassinated Yitzhak Rabin. You can be for the concept of Israel but still despise its government. Israelis need to wake up to whats happening, especially the young people who like to think they are so cosmopolitan. That could all be yanked away.

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Always worth pointing out.

The part about Fairfax is a non sequitur. Democrats do not currently have an overarching issue of being unwilling to confront sexual misconduct and hold our lawmakers accountable. Virginia is a mess right now and they need to work that out but it’s not reflective of any current trend in Democratic politics, you’re cherrypicking.

When it comes to Israel and Democratic politics I think a part of the problem is that non Jews have been reluctant to wade into a debate that has seemed very complicated and have ceded that debate to people they thought had the best interest of Jews at heart. I count myself as one of these people.

I think the Hive reflects much of what’s happening on the left broadly. People formerly reluctant to weigh in are saying “this isn’t ok”.


I am a bit confused about this. The reaction to Netanyahu's actions have been extremely negative from American Jews. But you seem to be holding Jews responsible for the wording of a headline in AP article. What possible sense does that make? Now the article appeared on TPM. And maybe we should have changed the headline or whatever. I'm not sure. On the weekend the site is mainly in the hands of junior staff and for that reason the guidance is to be restrained in this regard. So they'd be inclined to publish a wire story as prepared. But again, how are American Jews responsible for the headline of an AP article? If you actual look into the reaction has been highly critical, very stiff condemnation from basically all US groups.

More generally, I would hope you realize that American Jews are citizens of a different country and are not responsible for policing the Israeli government's actions.

So I guess I find the point both factually inaccurate on its face and highly troubling in holding American Jews responsible for something the Israeli government does.


Be honest, I've gone deeper than that. And the OP wasn't focused on American Jews, it was triggered by the TPM article, but addressed a wider topic.

You assert this, but no poster here has bothered to document it. If I believe that American Jews are reluctant to criticise the policies of the Israeli government, and I do, then others can convince me of that with documentation.

I believe that is a minefield and I try to never to bring it up. I am surprised that you do. The Israeli Law of Return seems to work automatically upon arrival in Israel which, if true, does seem to blur the distinction between American Jews and Israeli citizens. But I could be wrong about the facts and I don't wish to discuss the issue in depth because it usually ends up all heat and no light.

I believe that you are mischaracterizing what I have said, a common problem when Israel gets on the agenda. I have implied that American Jews identify with Israel (specifically Israeli Jews) and find it difficult to criticize actions/policies/statements when such criticism would be viewed as agreeing with Israeli's opponents. I believe that is the basis of the TPM article and the deeper story as told in the Haaretz article linked to and quoted above.

I find this is a common trait among people in general and is amply displayed by US politics. Trump has caused the GOP to speak no evil about him and it makes no sense to me.

I ask the question why?

Seriously what was the OP about? What is this thread supposed to be about?

I ask because I was going to make a thread about this given my frustrations with people's handling of accusations (of very different natures) against Franken, Klobuchar, and Fairfax. (And probably Northam but I tried to stay mostly out of that thread.) So I was very surprised when I opened this up and saw that this was in fact a thread about Jews failing to condemn Israel. When I pointed out the Fairfax situation and also that you were reading way too much into the wording and in fact those organizations did condemn the party. I was then told I was ignoring the topic of the thread so idk what you want.

holy shit dude. It is not a touchy thing to bring up unless you subscribe to the dual loyalties canard.

mods you should lock this trash heap of a thread. If we want a discussion of Israel people can make one. If we want a discussion of failure to self-police, we should make a different thread as this one is poisoned from the OP.


I considered specifically naming Franken, but it was a while ago and I was too lazy to refresh my memory. So I just waved my hand at Dems in general.

The TPM article was that, this thread not at least until commenting began.

I didn't respond to your 'Justin Fairfax' post, @frantastic did. I have not dug into the Justin Fairfax story any time since it erupted (I have only read the headlines) so I can't comment on the particulars. When I gleamed that was what he was talking about, I skipped the rest of his response to you because I don't want to dig into the story about Justin Fairfax.

I agreed with his response to my quoted part, so I just left it go. I didn't even "like" his post.

It is a minefield for a non-Jew to bring up because there is a prima facie case to be made that can't actually be ignored. Look at all the ink wasted in the 2016 cycle when the topic rose about Sanders. Just like Bachmann with Swiss citizenship and Cruz with Canadian citizenship. The President cannot be allowed to have dual loyalties, never, never.

Then you should do so. I will request that this thread be closed as soon as you do.

Actually your note specifically refers to "American Jews." So I'm not sure what debate there is over that. You also suggest that since the law of return provides near automatic rights to citizenship to Jews from any country that that means that American Jews who have never visited Israel or tried to get Israeli citizenship are in fact partly responsible for Israel's actions. That claim does not seem to hold up logically.

I'm also surprised and a little troubled by saying it's a "minefield" and you're surprised I brought it up. Why are you surprised? This sound like you're surprised I've brought up some kind of uncomfortable secret.

There's been a debate among people who follow news about Israel closely about whether American Jewish groups have criticized the Netanyahu government enough for what it's done here. I'm in the camp that says they have not enough because the criticism has mainly focused on the Kahanist party as opposed to Netanyahu per se. But it's also completely false to suggest there's been no criticism. The criticism has actually been pretty much universal. You're saying that you simply choose to believe this is not true until someone here becomes your information butler and documents it for you. I guess if anyone wants to do that that's up to them. You're free to try google if you actually want to know what's happening.


Let me say one more thing here. The exchange is getting heated. I've made my views pretty clear. And I'm uncomfortable with the arguments in the initial post. But I'd ask all to try to de-inflame the exchange and Schoolboy I'd ask you to give some thought to these responses.


Information butler... I like that.

Netanyahu facing challenges, criticism from Jewish liberals
Top Jewish Members of Congress Condemn Netanyahu’s Deal With Far-right Party
At home and abroad, Netanyahu faces backlash for far-right alliance

Oh, and the definition of reprehensible:

Please note the synonyms:
deplorable, disgraceful, disreputable, despicable, wrong, bad, shameful, dishonorable, ignoble, erring, errant, objectionable, odious, opprobrious, repugnant, inexcusable, unpardonable, unforgivable,, indefensible, unjustifiable

Concerned is not there. Note the definition for deplorable and despicable are also "deserving of". Do you require a literal statement of "I hereby condemn thee" to qualify for condemnation?

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More to the reason like "I condemn thee for ...". Otherwise it's just generic disapproval.