Meet The Never-Christian-Nationalist Evangelicals - TPM – Talking Points Memo

[jnbenson]

@zenicetus

It’s a distinction without a difference between these two groups when the rubber hits the road.

The place where the distinction without a difference is drawn in stark terms was here:

@discobot

Many refuse to speak out publicly for fear of harassment; others who do speak out do so in muted, measured tones, as if quietly chiding a prodigal son.

We need to keep in mind that these same people use Christian Martyrs and persecution of Christians prior to Constantine as cudgels and say they’ll die for their faith. If they can’t risk harassment and do things in “measured tones” it’s reasonable to question their commitment to this “Never-Christian-Nationalist-Evangelicals.” This may sound harsh, but explain to me the difference between this group and the Germans who joined the NDSP, but didn’t approve of the concentration camps.

We do need to take a deep breath so we can acknowledge and work with Christians who actually do fight back against them. I don’t always agree with John Pavlovitz’ articles, but I find him thoughtful and decent. There are many others, who do speak out, who do say “You’re doing it wrong.” I have to remind myself of this. From their perspectives, they feel more in the wilderness than atheists, not only are they attacked their people who have the most in common with their moral and ethical standards, but by their nominal co-religionists as well.

[chelsea530]

“There’s a great number of people in the middle of this debate that would say, ‘the left has overreached. They’re transing kids, they’re grooming children in schools. And so we need to stand against this movement. And in order to do that, we just need to have a Christian nation.’ And so that’s sort of the bedrock foundational ideology that’s pushing a lot of people in that direction,” Buice told TPM.

Transing kids? Kids might be transgender - they know what they feel, and that’s science-based. Grooming kids in school? Teaching them history science, math, reading and learning about the world perhaps outside their scope of reference?

This bedrock is built on sand, and hes right, if they keep pushing it, there will be an overcorrection, and it will be a major catastrophe… for them.

Although I disagree with him about his “beliefs,” he hits the nail on the head here:

The rules governing our relationship to God must be kept separate from those defining our relationships with one another, he argues — the former is theology, the latter is politics.

And ne’er the two should meet.

[Fire_Joni_Ernst]

This program/podcast interviews a subject who is a NPR reporter and wrote a book ”The Exvangelicals” I thought that this hour long program. Cross-posted from my last post for TPR’s last article on the subject.

NPR correspondent examines her religious upbringing in 'The Exvangelicals'

Edited to add the link. I had a meeting.

[chelsea530]

@jnbenson

they feel more in the wilderness than atheists

Huh? Atheists feel like they’re in the wilderness? Doesn’t feel like it to me. It’s these so-called Christians who are living in the wilderness, because they seem to avoid the modern day world and pine for the fjords past.

[lastroth]

@kelaine

Though he was who he was, my father respected and understood other religions.

And that here is where the problem is. Do Christian Nationalists think Catholics are Christians? There were a few wars over this.
Where the Authoritarianism comes is that we all must conform to their beliefs. The individual must be made to get inline with what leaders say and do.

[richardinjax]

The God of Abraham. It seems your father was a true Christian. I know some of them. They see the Word of Christ as one of love, tolerance and charity. They tend to be happy people. They may or may not “pray like the hypocrites do” or even wear a Cross around their necks. Don’t need the trappings just the Word.

Things have changed.

[jnbenson]

@chelsea530

Atheists feel like they’re in the wilderness?

You probably don’t and you probably have a community (like here) of similarly minded people. My point is that your moral and ethical compass seem to point in the same direction as the Christians who actually do object to the Christian Nationalist agenda. They’re not pining for the past, they’re trying to live with us in the present. They do exist, and from comments on their blogs and other resources I’d say they get plenty of hate for it.

I just feel like I can’t argue for tolerance and understanding, and then perpetrate my own intolerance. I can reject without reservation the Christian Nationalists agenda and philosophy and still acknowledge that there are people who consider themselves Christians who also reject that agenda and philosophy without question. I think I’d argue that it’s time for those Christians to have a schism with the Christian Nationalists. I think they would find that in many instances we share a common cause.

[jaeger]

One should always pay special attention to the people who want to hurt you.

[tdrainey]

Thanks for posting this. Since I gave up on the WaPo in irritation at their relentless both-sidesing, I would otherwise have missed this rather outspokenly liberal op-ed.

[geographyjones]

“Ne’er the two should meet”
Yup…Religion should be the nurturing of our better angels and politics should be the mitigation of our worse devils. This is true whether you’re a secular humanist or a religionist.
Mixing the two diminishes both.

[socalista]

@kelaine

the word Allah is merely the Arabic word for God

Exactly. Arabs who are Christians and Arabs who are Jews also worship Allah. I get so tired of explaining this to people! No one says French-speaking people are not Christians because they worship Dieu

[socalista]

@richardinjax

Is there such a thing as an evangelical Christian and if so…does it mean they’re some form of sooper dooper Christian or have they just taken on a name to make something of themselves? What does one have to do to become an Evangelical? It seems no more than adopt the name and then expect the fame

1/2 of my birth family is Evangelical. Eu-angel is the root, which means Good News (Eu, Greek prefix meaning “good”; Angelos messenger). Spreading the Good News of Peace on Earth Good Will Toward Men, Allelujah, is fundamental to Evangelicals. They are messengers of the Good News

Meanings of course diverge over time, and the group that is most determined to spread their version of Christianity – by force if necessary – has somewhat co-opted the name, but there are other offshoots of evangelism, including greens who see in Genesis 2:15 an exhortation to care for nature as God’s precious creation, nurturing and protecting it, and others who see in Genesis 1:26 a command to dominate, command, and exert control over the entire earth. Manifest Destiny is a traditionally American expression of that, with a white supremacist vision grafted on

I personally do not see the word “evangelical” as meaningless, nor do I see it as implying special reverence. It’s an important historical strand of U.S. history that entwined with the Calvinism of the Puritans (and the harsh conservatism of Dutch Reformed Church), but has also branched in other directions, including strands that embrace the brotherly love of the first Pilgrims

[sydneyp22]

@lastroth

The individual must be made to get inline with what leaders say and do.

Well, what they say anyway. What they actually do is another story. Mostly hypocrites as far as I can see.

Conservative pastor hasn’t yet been outed as a (choose all that apply): pedophile, drug user, abuser, homosexual? Just wait.

[not that they is anything wrong with homosexuality in my reckoning - but that’s the whole point of authoritarianism, isn’t it - that my reckoning doesn’t count]

[ronbyers]

Both organized religion and politics suffer from the same problem: they exist to place blame on others. In doing so they empower the people doing the blaming and little more. Neither is designed to solve broad problems. Personally I am sick of both.

[eddycollins]

While I haven’t paid the closest attention to this well-worn subject of conservative/nationalist complaining, for essentially my adult life (I’m now 62) “foreign aid” has been and remained about 1 percent of the federal budget–while not nothing, it’s also hardly a massive sum in the grand scheme o’ things.

IIRC, aid to Israel is the vast majority of that 1% and the next largest chunk goes to Egypt, in support of (bribery for?) their continued support of the Camp David Peace Accord.

The rest of the world ‘gets to’ fight over the remaining ~1/3 of one percent and any time I’ve brought up these facts w/ someone demanding to balance our federal budget by slashing foreign aid, they suddenly become–as my late Grandpa John woulda said–as silent as a whore in church.

@fgs

A popular conservative thought is that no money should be spent on foreign aid when there are so many problems here in the United States.

(ETA: my comments hold true until the last couple of years, w/ our interests in Ukraine suddenly and understandably making a large increase.)

[ColBatGuan0]

@lastroth

And that here is where the problem is. Do Christian Nationalists think Catholics are Christians? There were a few wars over this.

This is the point they never seem to grasp. They all imagine that their version of Christian Nationalism will just be universally accepted by other Christians and then they can get down to punishing us non-believers. I’m reminded of the Emo Phillips joke that ends “Die, heretic!”

[Flodis]

I was raised in the Evangelical cult. As a kid went to the “asuza st” sect of pentecostals (not the actual revival but the people that believed it was true and their duty to recreate in church)…which became the larger charismatic movement and all the “word of faith” and non-denominational crazy shows…vinyeard…barking worship the whole works. This was while I had zero control as a child. thank god in my recovery I found Jim Wallace and Soujourners,eventually I lucked out and my father became a quaker pastor in the “evangelical quakers” yeah that is a thing but at least it got me free from the fundamentalist evangelicals that believed the Bible was the LITERAL INERRANT word of god. Quakers believed the Bible was inspirational but not the last word on God. That small detail changed the trajectory of my life and propelled me out of the orbit!

The whole of evangelical christendom is a pretty large dishonest lie in my life experience as a pastors kid. Having been on the inside of “leadership” and a vital part of the “worship music” as a prodigious multi instrumentalist they sucked me in.

As a result of this life I spent over 30 years in therapy unlearning that I am a worthless wretched sinner. Thanks Mom and Dad! There is nothing honest, wholesome or good about the christian nationalism folks. It is terrorism period.

[lolly1128]

Sister, I hear you and agree 100%. The thing that makes me crazy are fellow Christians here in the US, who claim to be persecuted. They don’t know the meaning of the word.

[joelopines]

@socalista

Eu-angel is the root, which means Good News (Eu, Greek prefix meaning “good”; Angelos messenger).

How dare you write from actual knowledge and thoughtfulness instead of just disparaging the others? Who do you think you are, an educator? /s

Thanks for that. It comports with what I have learned elsewhere, and is cogent as all hell (you should pardon the expression).

BTW: I hear that angelos, in Greek, was spelled alpha gamma gamma epsilon lambda omicron sigma. We know how it was pronounced because chiselers weren’t among the best-educated folk, and sometimes misspelled it phonetically. That’s about two-thirds of what I remember from my year’s instruction in Attic Greek.

[tigersharktoo]

@jmacaz

It’s hard for me to take seriously anyone who thinks Christians are under attack in this country.

Exactly. Where are the Crucifixions?