Discussion: Ukrainian Unrest Spreads; Dozens Dead In Odessa

Discussion for article #222346

The Ukraine is wishful thinking, as far as Putin’s understanding (New Russia) is concerned, a myth that even Lenin knew better to leave alone. An editorial from yesterday’s L. A. Times, lays out the idiocy of Putin’s land grab quite well.

Certainly worth a read.

“It’s easy to understand why Putin would covet and wish to annex Odessa and other southeast Ukrainian cities, but calling them Russian cities evokes a history that never was. In the 1920s, when Vladimir Lenin made the region officially a part of Ukraine and granted the Ukrainian Socialist Republic a veneer of autonomy, he said he was doing so “to avoid Great Russian imperialism and chauvinism.” Vladimir Putin clearly sees nothing wrong with these traits.”

My opinion is that Putin needs a service road to the navel base in Crimea (he has already promised a bridge but Moscow doesn’t have the money to fulfill his wishes) and thinks he can manage it through eastern Ukraine.

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So far America, instead of trying to calm the situation in the Ukraine, has sided with the riot installed interim government in Kiev in its efforts to suppress popular dissent. The Geneva Agreement that applied to both the pro-Europeans as well as the Russian speakers, was endorsed by Russia, EU and US. But John Kerry interpreted the Agreement as applying only to the non-Kiev areas. So instead of working for real peace, Kerry sent American military advisers to the anti-Russian elements in Kiev to guide them. But the only way there ever will be peace in the Ukraine is if Washington stops interfering altogether and allows the people of the Ukraine to solve their own problems.

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I think you might consider the possibility that we’re not exactly guys in white hats in this situation. Setting up Ukraine as the locale for a proxy war with Russia isn’t exactly an act of mercy and very likely has a good deal more to do with our own nationalistic ambitions than altruism. Take a look here for starters: http://www.salon.com/2014/05/01/a_corrosive_dereliction_of_duty_why_the_new_york_times_america_first_journalism_is_so_dangerous/

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For the life of me I can’t figure out why so many people accept Putin’s explanations at face value and then repeat his talking points.

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Why mince words? The current Ukraine mess is Obama’s baby and nobody else’s. His overthrow of an elected government and his betrayal of the Ukraine into the hands of neoNazis represents the absolute nadir of his
presidency as well as his outing as an enemy of democracy and a supporter of fascism. None of the Obamaniac trolls will even consider Obama’s role in this deliberate provocation; they dare not because not only would it besmirch his reputation but it might very well negatively effect the presidential campaign of their next fake progressive-liberal darling, Hillary Clinton.

Golly, I was thinking the same thing about Obama, Kerry, and Biden.

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I’ve no argument with your point(s) meddlesome as the west and Putin are wont to be, it continues to be the modus operandi.

Facts on the ground, one (collective) side wants to be on a more EU tether, the other is more comforted by a neo soviet tether.

The point is that historicity will prevail and Putin, despite his adulated yet highly insular worldview at home will suffer (long term) economically especially if sanctions begin to manacle Exon, Shell etc. for Siberian, North Sea and far east oil terminal projects that Putin does not posses technology to achieve without the west.

On balance, other issues include Odessa which never has been Russian, the enclave of Dagistan where young men are trained ad nauseum to be suicide jihaddists ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PLIWZj5Buk ) because an incursion, if operational, would enable/empower opposite subversives to his own provocateurs fomenting the current unrest.

Short hand is he would over play his hand, invite a counter, counter insurgency and reap a similar result to the Balkans two decades ago.

Intransigence by outside motivated disruption and an economy crumbling around his ears, that will be the outcome.

Putin will need to reconsider his fate once the oligarchs turn against him for creating another Dagistan even closer to Moscow.

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Great article. This section in particular:

In the former category, I do not want an American rendition of Pravda. I object to a newspaper run by people who are Americans before they are journalists — people who fail to see that the best way to be American in their shoes is to be good journalists. I posit no golden age of brilliantly principled newspapering, but things have got greatly worse in recent years.

My thesis here: American media caved very big and deep during the Cold War, frightened to their bones, and they have never recovered the ground surrendered.

And after 9-11, the caving became even more widespread and pernicious. Hard to say if we’ll ever recover.

There’s no doubt that Obama has finally jumped into the Ukrainian cesspool up to his whatever. But I suspect it didn’t have to happen this way. Undoubtedly, the neo-con State Department has always planned to plant NATO bases in the Ukraine. And the EU gambit in November was about to create an opening for State. But according to a WSJ article at the time Obama was reluctant and personally advised the EU to counter Moscow’s generous offer to Kiev. Whether Obama asked the EU to drop its objections to Ukraine remaining neutral, isn’t known. But that was rendered moot when instead of negotiating Brussels decided to foment another colored revolution and drive the Ukrainian president out of office and replace him with a pliable satrap. Amusingly Europe now in league with State and the CIA made a Baptist minister the “president” of their Ukraine. My point is that there is a little evidence that Obama might not have been fully on board with the neo-con State Department at first and only later was brought to heel by Kerry and his clique.

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I doubt we’ll ever agree on this, Cerberus.

So let’s just agree to disagree.

Glenn Greenwald @ggreenwald

@billmon1 “Sure, we tortured, droned, kidnapped, rendered, destroyed Iraq. kept GITMO open - but look at Putin. He’s *really awful”

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What did you expect from media owned by those who will profit most from the sack of the Ukraine by the EU and realize even greater profits from a shooting war. Remember: All Wars are Bankers’ Wars.

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How very generous. If you don’t mind I’ll agree to nothing. But please, keep repeating my Daily Kos post; I love to see my work in print.

Brought to heel by Kerry? Are you serious? Kerry couldn’t bring a hamster to heel; he’s nothing but Obama’s meat puppet. Who’s far more likely to have brought Obama to heel is the same cadre of neocons who plotted Bush’s Iraq
war. They never stopped working towards world domination by any means and now their back in force. It is no accident that the woman who managed Obama’s Ukraine putsch, Victroria Nuland, is none other than the wife of arch-neocon
Robert Kagan. It appears to be a family buisiness.

lol! Your work? lol!

Just watching all this is really painful for me. I was born in Ukraine, but my first language is Russian (well, I guess since I lived the better part of my life here in the US, it shares that spot with English now).

First of all, it pains me to see the place of my birth ravaged by a brutal, no-holds-barred, undeclared war, and why – all because it wants freedom and democracy, and wants it more badly than even the famously ill-fated goat of Monsieur Seguin.

And second, I could never have imagined the sheer depths of vile revanchist frenzy to which Russia has sunk now. I mean it’s pretty apparent to everyone in their right mind by now that Russia has become the modern-day equivalent of the 1930’s Nazi Germany. Of course, the ideology is more flexible now, but it’s no less vicious. And, of course, it calls itself anti-fascist and labels everyone else Nazis in true Orwellian fashion and a clear case of projection.

Also, I don’t take or make comparisons with Nazi Germany lightly. The Kremlin is now testing the acceptance level of Nazis and Hitler personally by the Russian population, and judging by the lack of significant pushback by the public opinion, the situation is pretty dire. A few days ago, a Russian newspaper called Izvestia (“The News”), still influential, although not quite as in the Soviet days, published a column by a historian and a member of the Russian Academy of Sciences, who argued, basically, that the pre-Poland-invasion Hitler is a figure on par with Lincoln and would have been remembered as a great politician of his day had he not invaded Poland. Here is what he says:

One needs distinguish Hitler before 1939 from Hitler after 1939 and separate the flies from the beef patties. The thing is that while Hitler was engaged in collecting the lands [“collecting the lands” is the expression they are using with regard to Putin now in Russia. – U.] and if […] he were famous only for bringing together without a drop if blood Germany and Austria, Germany and Sudetenland, Memel [now Klaipeda, Lithuania. – U.] and Germany, having in fact accomplished what Bismarck failed at, and if Hitler stopped at that, he would have remained in the history of his country as a politician of the highest class.
You can read more about the column here in WP. So there we have it: the Russians profess to hate the Nazis, swear on their WWII veteran grandfathers’ graves that Ukrainians are Nazi sympathizers – and yet claim that the actual Nazis are not so bad! And, furthermore, Hitler is like Lincoln! (Remember, “collecting the lands”.)

Russia’s celebration of May Day this year has also shown exactly where the Kremlin guides the public opinion. Here is a slogan from the May Day parade in Moscow saying, “Collapse of Darwin’s theory! A big-eared black monkey tries to rule the world!” And here is another one saying, “Obama! You tell bald-faced lies and don’t even blush! It’s good to be a Negro!” I cannot remember anything near such vile, unapologetic, officially sanctioned racism even during the Soviet times.

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Do you think the revolution in Ukraine happened because EU or US fomented it? Come on. People were just tired of a president who stole whatever and whenever he could, stole so much that he had to literally sell his country to a neighboring tyrant. Ukraine is not Russia or Belarus or Central Asia, and has had a relatively democratic post-Soviet history. Until Yanukovich, that is. That’s when it started sliding into the Russian-style dictatorship, and the Ukrainian people just wouldn’t allow it. When you talk about a “pliable satrap”, it’s pretty clear to me that you don’t know what you’re talking about here.

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Indeed. Even for the supposed vacationers to get from Moscow to Crimea’s South Coast now and make the Crimean tourist season happen, one needs to take a train (1 day ride), then a bus, then a ferry, then another bus. Everyone in Crimea now understands that the tourist season this year is DOA. And the crops are dead, too.

Do we think the revolution in Ukraine happened because EU or US fomented it? Of course not. The $5 billions
Obama funneled to the neoNazi extremists went for candy and flowers. As we now know, The US and NATO
were training the neoNazis in Poland two months before the takeover in Kiev took place.

Poland’s Hand in Ukraine Coup d’Etat: Trained Putchists Two Months in Advance, on Behalf of US-NATO