Discussion: Ukraine Insurgents Claim 90% Vote for Sovereignty in East

Discussion for article #222633

Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Why do I think the caption on that photo should be, “No no no, madame! That is the wrong ballot you are casting…”

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So “Transparent elections” means see-through ballot boxes so that they see the votes as they are cast and can kill the 10% that voted the wrong way

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The ballots were also just photocopied sheets of paper, and there was no voter roll at all. But I’m sure that doesn’t affect the legitimacy of it at all.

It’s not the people who vote that count. It’s the people who count the votes. ~Joseph Stalin

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That’s not civil discourse, Long Tom. Why don’t you explain why you have replied with an insult instead of an intelligent argument–we would all like to hear your reasoned opinion.

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Skepticism about the “legitimacy” of this vote is stupid. Obviously supporters of remaining part of the Kiev regime would be loathe to participate in a plebescite sponsored by its opponents, whereas pro-autonomy, pro-Russia citizens would be much more enthusiastic. The best reporting in the west on this has been from on-site BBC reporters. Far more objective than the mindlessly anti-Russian cold war era agitprop on all US media outlets.

And what does the BBC have to say exactly? Let’s see:

BBC reporters at polling stations on Sunday witnessed few checks on identity and multiple voting in places.

BBC reporters said only a handful of polling stations served Mariupol, a city of half a million

The BBC filmed a woman casting two ballots

One pro-Ukraine teacher said she received death threats after refusing to let rebels use her school as a polling station

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27369500

So, I think it would be entirely reasonable to suspect the vote is illegitimate. Anyone who actually buys the propaganda from Russian media, which has been shown to be lies time and again, is probably a Fox News listener, because they enjoy getting their information from a lying propaganda network. Pravda would be their media of choice if it still existed.

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Even the Russians seem to be backing off from supporting these people. It’s possible that Russia has begun to calculate the huge financial drain that those districts, with their obsolete factories and aging population, would impose on a nation already in serious financial straits.

On the other hand, we can see some progress here. In Soviet days, they would have said the vote was 98%.

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The other 10% have been rounded up for “questioning”.

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This entire article is nothing but proaganda designed to make any opposition to what the West wants done in Ukraine as illegitimate. Refereing to people who opposes the removal of the democratically elected government as insurgents. The West, including the U.S., sponsored the coup that removed the democratically elected President and replaced him with a hand picked yes man. Now they are claiming all actions by those who oppose them as an “insurgency”.

We brought this upon ourselves by, once again, getting involved in other country’s internal disputes.

In the 2010 Presidential election, this area of the Ukraine voted 75+% for the ousted President, they do not want to be ruled by the West hand picked yes man in Kiev.

90% for independence with 75% voting? Wow, they couldn’t even be bothered to make up plausible numbers here?

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Heh, “official” report this morning is 96%. Just like the good old days of Soviet Rule.

President is not the government.

Ukraine is holding Presidential elections in a few weeks to replace the ousted President.

The process at candidacy is open. No reports of questionable disqualifications (compare to Russia’s elections since Yeltsin).

The “insurgents” are heavily armed separatists that took over government buildings by force, set up a puppet government by their own little coup, claimed “independence” already, even before the referendum, and are now wanting to have another “vote” to join Russia. They represent only a vocal minority even in Eastern Ukraine, and hardly represent the area on the whole.

If 100% of the voters of the State of Maine voted to secede from the Union and become a province of Canada, would it make any difference whether the vote was legitimate or not? Ukrainian sovereignty is not subject to a referendum by a disaffected group.

So you would have no problem if foreign powers financed a coup and had the “Congress” vote to remove President Obama, because that is what happened in the Ukraine. Like Crimea, this area is 80-90% ethnic Russian, they don’t want to be ruled by Europe via their hand picked yes man in Kiev.

BTW, what good are elections, if you can just throw out the democratically elected President if they don’t support trade and other agreements with Western Nations?

The only soluntion is for Eastern Ukraine, who will vote 80-90% for whoever the Russian backed candidate is, to simply become independent.

Anyone get the feeling that Putin is starting to realize the monster he’s created here?

Sanctions (if those sanctions ever target petrochemicals… look out), unruly populations to placate, military expenses… they are no longer the USSR, they have a small military for their size, and the expense has to be creeping up, each and every day. This may someday be Putin’s undoing.

what’s wrong letting those people settle their own disputes, whether they are pro-Russian or pro-American they should settle it among themselves. Nobody there is any better or worse than the other. And most important it is none of the West’s business.

Take off that tin foil hat. The old President was voted out 328-0. The precedent for that was criminal activity by the President. We have processes in place to remove the President as well by the Legislative branch if the President is found to have acted criminally.

This separatist area is 80-90% Russian speaking. That doesn’t mean they are “ethnic” Russians. They are Ukrainian nationals and based on recent polls 70% of them want to remain part of Ukraine.

If this region does become independent, and then perhaps joins Russia, what do you propose is done with the Ukrainians in the region. The ones that wanted to remain part of Ukraine? Do they get yet another vote to determine their future?

They were settling their own disputes, until Putin decided to annex Crimea through active destabilization of the region.

Putin has in his mind that his neighbors shouldn’t have the right to join packs and agreements that they want, if they go against the interests of Russia.