"…Douthat, however, remains skeptical, complaining that “approval of divorce, premarital sex, and out-of-wedlock childbearing”
Even with chunky Reese Witherspoon, Ross?
3 Likes
Marriage is complicated, that’s for sure, and gay couples who have entered into it also get divorced or otherwise leave it, and for all we know there is domestic abuse between two same sex partners, but for most it’s search for Ms Right and sharing a life. The next hurdles are the barriers to fair housing and the job discrimination same sex people still face.
4 Likes
Douthat is a very well documented misogynist and bigot. By his own hand. The poster child of narrow minded white privilege.
Of the SS couples I know, most have been in long term relationships for no less than a decade. They take their commitment as seriously as hetero couples do, and are just as firmly entrenched in the daily rituals and requirements: paying the bills, going to work, discussions about where to vacation, should they have children, should they buy a home, etc etc. As a single woman I have no basis from which to form an opinion on what makes a good union for creation of a marriage, but I’d have to say to me and from what I witness, they’re just as committed to making it work as anyone else is.
To me, fundamentally, the entirety of the argument for it is for equality as intended for all human beings in the tenets of the Constitution. The Founding Fathers were not religious zealots - far from it. So that argument holds zero water to me. Ultimately I would never want to see any of the SS couples I know be placed in a position where they had no legal or equal rights pertaining to their partners in an emergency (it’s happened) because under the eyes of some antiquated positioning of legality, they were not considered a spouse or a legal partner. That’s where all this came from in the first place.
For anyone to think allowing SS couples to marry is somehow a threat to their hetero marriage or relationship, there is a deeper and much more profound issue there that no court or legislation is ever going to be able to fix, because it’s about trust. Not even about faith…TRUST. If any opponents are truly honest about it, that’s what it comes down to.
15 Likes
A good article and insights but I think we are entering the “giving conservatives too much credit” phase by entertaining their intellectual rationalizations. We as liberals, progressives, lefties are good listeners and we do like a spirited exchange of ideas (unlike our ideological counterparts), but the largest reason for opposition to gay marriage is as follows:
What Republican candidate can go into 2016 saying “I support gay marriage. The liberals had it right”?
Even though in their hearts many Republicans could give a rat’s behind about gay couples getting married, they still NEED to have some one or something to demonize. It’s what makes a conservative a conservative. I mean their own political, social, and economic ideas are first class shite that have been proven ostensibly to not work. All they have is the “We’re not them” card which appeals to the innate bigotry and sense of entitlement in their dwindling base.
10 Likes
Traditional marriage, as defined by Douthat has been in decline at least since the start of the industrial revolution. It has been under serious attack for at least 100 years. Except for a few evangelicals and some Catholic bishops traditional marriage, which was anchored in the economics of agriculture, not religion, hasn’t had many proponents since my parents moved from the farm to the city just before WWII. It has just taken a long time for it to die.
That said, how do we create economic units (families) where the youngest and oldest in our society can be nurtured? It can clearly be done, because it is being done, but how do we normalize and strengthen love based commitments? I think the Supreme Court’s decision is a step toward that normalization.
8 Likes
This is a fantastic article. After decades of listening to – and quite easily refuting – the same old conservative arguments against same-sex marriage, I eventually began chalking their position up to willful ignorance and simple homophobia. In fact, when I read Douthat’s article, I saw in it nothing more than the staid blah-blah we’ve always heard. Marcotte’s analysis of what lies beneath those old arguments was completely new to me…but it should not have been. I have a sneaking suspicion that I’ve been engaging in some willful ignorance of my own.
9 Likes
Is the proper pronunciation of his last name, ‘Asshat’?
6 Likes
Maybe she has a point, but not everything is about gender persecution. This article completely discounts the role that religion has played, and continues to play, in the discrimination against LGBT people. Also, the entire article is spent blaming conservatives, but the fact is that 1 in 5 liberals don’t support SSM. (and 1 in 3 when you ask Dems).
Now look at the religiously unaffiliated: in 2001 - still a solid majority at 61%, and in 2015? 85%.
Their is a consistent 7 point gap between men and women, so I’m not saying Marcotte doesn’t have a point, I just think religion seems to be much more of a factor than gender oppression.
3 Likes
JESus PEOPle. DOES it NEEd to BE sPELLEd OUT For YOU??? A MOtHER aND faTHER KISS in BED. TheN An ANGEL sTICks a SEED in THE MOTher’s BELLY bUTTON and THEN a BABY grows. THAt IS WHy GAY MARRY MAkes NO SENSE AT all1!!!1!!!one!!!1!!!
10 Likes
I always find it funny, in every sense of the word, that these right wingnut GOP Con and Bagger loons can’t prove God exists but firmly ‘believe’ He does, but would deny gay people their rights and even their very lives in many cases on the off chance that their imaginary Sky God will be pissed off.
BTW: Gay people must be tired of the term ‘gay marriage’…They didn’t drive a car and gay park it and then meet their friends to eat a gay lunch today. It is, once and forever, MARRIAGE!
3 Likes
Marriage is, bit by bit, becoming more about a partnership between equals who choose each other for the purpose of love and happiness. Which means it’s becoming less about giving men control over women’s lives.
More of this please. It takes work to navigate what with our societal norms having to catch up, but it sure is a hell of a lot more enjoyable.
3 Likes
People who talk about “traditional” marriage should be asked: Whose tradition? The Ozzie-Harriet style marriage, where the man works and the woman stays home and raises kids, is a historical aberration – one that did not work out well for many women (and some men, though most got the better part of the deal). Now that women can control their fertility and be economically independent, and gays are entitled to the legal benefits of marriage, there’s no turning back the clock. Gays and straights will create new traditions, thank you very much.
10 Likes
Good article. If this really is Douthat’s position, maybe he should ultimately be in favor of gay marriage but insist that it be made mandatory for gay people and that it require that one partner completely submit to the will of the other. Don’t sell gay people short, Ross–perhaps they could do their part in keeping that ole’ time oppression alive if you would only ask them.
2 Likes
I don’t believe that gay marriage actually changes marriage. What it does is pull the basis of modern marriage out of the dark closet of mythology and prove that the structure of marriage has already changed.
3 Likes
Amanda, thank you for such an insightful post. it certainly contains much that had never occurred to me.
What do you think about the conservative idea of taking marriage completely away from the government? Make marriage something that has no legal meaning. Make the legal state something with a name like domestic partnership that is all about the legal stuff but has nothing to do with sex or love. Let siblings who want to live together and share property do it. Let close business partners do it. That idea has some appeal to me. My rabbi will marry gay couples no problem (and has for a while). Why must it have legal consequences?
4 Likes
Remember the good old days when gays were condemned for being promiscuous? Now they’re being condemned for wanting to be committed.
8 Likes
I think Amanda has nailed it brilliantly. It’s a Conservative habit to be fighting the last war while the rest of us have moved on to the future, or at least the present. And I think it sums up the entire fear-based rhetoric of the right: Wait! You mean I’m not in charge anymore!
5 Likes
When you said that they would appear to be idiots, you were corret, regardless of their supposed intellect they really are idiots. Idiots slavishly devoted to a horrendous world view of power and subjegation that really needs to go away. And not just in this country.
Selfish, greedy and cowardly is no way to go thru life, yet the world abounds in it, from ISIS to NRO.
2 Likes
Better to live alone with cats than to marry an asshat like Douthat, a man who is clearly skeeved by any suggestion of a liberated woman.
4 Likes
Ross Cardinal Douthat is only parroting the tired old Catholic line that marriage is about popping out lots and lots of Catholic babies. I went to my first Catholic wedding service last year and was amazed at how baldly that point was made - the priest told them that their job was to just provide more Catholics.
5 Likes