Discussion: Simone Manuel Becomes First Black Woman To Win Swim Gold At Olympics

TPM Article Topics
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From here http://www.swimmingwithoutstress.co.uk/swimming-blog/black-men-cant-swim

…"Matt wonders, Is it true that black men are not ‘made to swim’ physiologically?
Matt Bridge, Senior Lecturer in Coaching & Sports Science, University of Birmingham
Expert on human movement and human physiology.
In terms of buoyancy there are some differences and there is evidence to suggest that black men and women are less buoyant than white men and women.
Differences in bone mineral density (weight of bones)
Take average black man and average white man and you’re looking at 300grams difference in terms of skeletal mass.
But there are people in both groups that break the rule, you can get very buoyant black men and very heavy white men.
But generally black people are less buoyant than white people.
But a non buoyant person can still swim.
Lack of buoyancy is most significant at the learning phase. e.g black kid kicking with float, legs may sink. Once you take the floats away, it evens itself out.

Well, according to this article, I think I sort of guessed right. It’s a matter of density. And regardless of which body part of blacks is more dense to me, from an engineering standpoint, the main part of swimming is staying afloat. If you don’t have to work as hard at floating that energy can be directed toward forward motion. And that’s really going to make a difference in longer races. This in my mind corresponds to running races where whites and blacks are more even the longer the race gets, since sprinter just need speed, distance runners are fighting fatigue.

A second non-statistically or scientifically confirmed (by me) observation on my part as to why whites might float better is that for equal height, blacks seem to have longer legs and shorter abdomen than whites. In my tiny mind’s eye I see abdomens as having less dense non-bone tissue that floats better in water, but it’s non-propulsive weight on land.

Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s just a matter of fewer blacks swimming because of cultural or economic reasons and if that’s ever changed they will do as well at swimming as they do at land sports. But even that in my mind will show that there’s a physical difference between blacks and whites as in my mind, blacks make up a higher percentage and have better records in college and professional sports and than the general population.

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Given the awesome achievements of both Simone Manuel and Simone Biles, I bet there are going to be a whole lot of newborn girls named “Simone” in the near future!

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Its a blog, with no links to any supporting studies. And the entirety of the blog is quite clearly, nothing but opinionated musings that also points out.

“Matt Bridge goes on to say that in the US marine corps, where non swimmers have to learn to swim, no one, black or white, has ever failed (quite stringent and vigorous) swimming test. This shows that social factors, confidence, motivation, peer group influences, are significant.”

Yeah…white women make up the majority of the professional tennis circuit too. But the Williams sister have dominated it for…how many years now? 14?

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Welp, I guess that’s one more stereotype the GOP/Teatrolls can’t blather about anymore…

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ha ha–Thanks for my first good laugh of the day!

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At the time, Ervin was the first person of African-American heritage to win a gold medal.

I’m guessing this should end “…in swimming”? Otherwise, Jesse Owens and a lot of other folks would be missing out!

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I didn’t time myself or receive any points, so I don’t have any reference of how I performed.
A quick search proves that I’m number 1 though, so I’ve got that going for me : )

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I don’t believe that tennis is culturally a black sport. To me the Williams sisters’ dominance makes my point.

As I said, maybe blacks’ lack of dominance in swimming is just a cultural thing, but I believe their dominance in sports that are culturally popular with both whites and blacks, like basketball and football, is a genetic thing and probably mostly due to breeding under slavery.

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Please let this mechanical engineer share another possible explanation w/ you. There is an obviously-unrecognized, ugly, and vast American history of excluding blacks from public swimming places. It was actually on this white boy’s mind as I watched–and teared up–as Ms. Manuel won her gold medal. Looking for some links to add as evidence, I ran across this article, showing real damage–even today–from failure to teach black kids to swim.

It’s enough to make me suggest that when one’s gut reaction (and societal training, if not “privilege” unearned and undeserved advantage) is to wonder about genetics to explain racial differences in performance, one might be even better served to look for systemic racism first, instead.

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I’d be among the first white males to admit blacks and women have been and still are treated like shit or worse than a lot of animals, particularly in America and we need to do something about it.

But to observe trends, not wonder about them and try to learn from them makes a tragedy a complete waste.

On a similar note, yes it sucks that the US used an atomic bomb on fellow humans not once, but twice. But god fucking damn it we should try and learn what we can from that mistake. Should we drop a few more and see what they tell us, hell no, but to not try and learn from a mistake that’s already been done makes it a complete mistake.

So yes it sucks that it’s taken this long for a black woman, the humans that have suffered more BS than probably all other groups of humans combined, to finally make this small step, but don’t let any insights we can gain as to why it took so long and maybe use that info help others in the future, go to waste make it a total tragedy.

Let’s try not to make mistakes, but when we do, let’s admit it, try to learn from it and most importantly, not repeat them.

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Except that isn’t what you were saying at all. You specifically said it was due to genetics…that genetically blacks don’t do well in swimming because they were bred for land athletics. You then went further and said that their bones were different, etc.

Its pretty classic “them” racism. My point about tennis, golf, hockey…is the arguments you trot out have all been used when Blacks started emerging there as well.

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OK one last try then you can go beat your drum that I’m a racist all you fucking want just because I think, based on undocumented observations in 55 years of living, that there might be physical differences that blacks tend to have that make them better at land sports and whites tend to have have physical differences that make them better at swimming.

Black people are predisposed to have tightly curled hair, I’m not saying that because I hate blacks or think it makes them less, I’m saying that based on undocumented observations in 55 years of living.

White people are predisposed to sunburned easily. I’m not saying that because I hate black or think it makes them less, I’m saying that based on undocumented observations in 55 years of living.

I believe there are diseases that affect people of certain races more than others. Dose that make me a racist too.

To me racism is a hatred of a group of folks based on their race. Noting that there are differences between the races, some genetic, some cultural, some due to outside forces that have allowed some folks to survive better.

When blacks start doing well in tennis golf and hockey you do realize those are land sports…never mind…

Have a nice weekend!

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Or, you know…winning gold medals in Olympic swimming? But lets dig deeper into where you are going there. Even by your own highly questionable theory…Blacks do well in tennis, golf, hockey because they are more muscular.

I listed out the physical attributes that give a swimmer an advantage…Broad shoulders, narrow hips to help break the water easier…a longer reach to increase the leverage of the strokes…bigger hands and feet to help in propelling them through the water by displacing larger amounts of it. Oh…and muscle to use those longer arms and bigger appendages. Kick stronger. Pull with your arms harder.

So being muscular is a definite advantage in swimming.

None of those things is more pronounced in either race, and certainly not attributable to any “breeding”.

The list of attributes you give here is laughable. Its a tired and old defense…“look, they are different in this way…so they must be different in lots of other ways. Probably because they were bred like animals”.

The “analysis” that you think you are doing is nothing but lazy and subjective observation, its not a rigorous scientific study. I challenge you to present such a study, instead of the musings of a blogger, as you did earlier.

The bottom line here is, you are trying to explain why Blacks aren’t as represented in swimming, because of genetics as the primary reason. When the reality is, it has much more to do with social and cultural reasons.

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The Canadian became the first swimmer born in the 21st century to win a gold medal in any Olympic sport.

Nope. She was born in the last year of the twentieth century. (20 x 100 = 2000)

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I’m confused by your response, but OK, I’ll bite. What “trends” do you “observe” that you think offer “any insights we can gain” and prevent them from going “to waste”?

The links I provided give my version of the answer. I observe a history of generations of blacks being generally denied access to public goods (in this case, swimming pools) readily-available to the majority white population, a population w/ higher average incomes and educational attainment also.

These latter items are interconnected and important because, as other commenters allude and Malcolm Gladwell’s insightful book [Outliers][1] says explicitly, Olympians and other elite performers require excellent coaching and lots of time (his “10,000 hour rule”) to invest in practice and otherwise building their capabilities, Poor and working-class people don’t/won’t have access to those things, nor the money to do so. Poor kids are more likely to have to work to contribute to their families–for the most part, they won’t be able to spend additional time practicing and such.

My understanding is that even for middle- and upper-middle-class [blacks][2] who’ve been able to ‘get ahead’, these larger cultural legacies are challenging to overcome. Witness wealthy and/or well-known black [celebrities][3] ([US Senators][4]!) being pulled over for [DWB][5] or otherwise attracting attention from law enforcement. Even they can never truly escape their skin color.

To make a long story even longer, all that seems to me to be much simpler–though more socially-troubling (esp. to whites)–“insights to be gained” “and learn[ed]…from” than any genetic predispositions or variations in muscle densities.

I don’t know you from Adam, nor whether you’re a racist or not. I know enough history to know that you’re making arguments often made by racists or those who want to deny the effects of racist policies and practices.

One final comment: I’ve been made aware of racist tendencies I have and I can’t deny them–I grew up in this society, too. I’m not ready to discuss them more at the moment, but I know they’re there and that I choose to want to be on guard against them. At least one of my 3x great-grandfathers owned enslaved people. I don’t know how many, but two of them killed him in 1862 for punishing their boys more than they deemed acceptable. I haven’t researched it far enough to know what happened to the enslaved fathers, but I suspect they didn’t last long after that.

So what do I do with or about any of that? I accept that it’s true–it happened–and yes, as you say on other subjects, “it sucks” and it was “wrong”. And I resolve to do what I can, here, now, in this time, to leave a better–which I would define as more inclusive, more equal, fairer, nobler, and more life-affirming–legacy for my 3x great-grandchild.

The “insight” I take is, among many others, to work against racist policies and practices as best I can; to have raised my kids to do likewise; to learn as much as I can about history so as to recognize “mistakes” when I see them, teach others about them (as I’m attempting here), and try to prevent or correct them, all to the best of my abilities for as long as I can.

[Stowing the soap box…]

Have great weekends, all! :sunglasses:
[1]: http://gladwell.com/outliers
[2]: http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/14/news/economy/wealthy-blacks-racial-profiling
[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Louis_Gates_arrest_controversy
[4]: http://time.com/4406540/senator-tim-scott-speech-transcript
[5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_while_black

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I lied, I’m going to reply one one time.

As I watch the sprints at the Olympics where almost every fucking person is black I’m laughing my ass off ( which is small because I’m white) because I believe you are a complete fucking idiot.

Am I a misogynist because I believe men are inherently stronger and faster than women, because of genetics?

Am I some bad person because I believe if Michael Phelps and Katie Ledecky had a children they would probably be a better swimmer than the general public?

Did I mention fuck you?

But still, have a nice weekend! :smile:

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Well, considering the other things you “believe” without any serious analysis except for what the lazy review for what passes for in your brain…I am not too worried about this belief either.

If they did, it would probably have more to do with their cultural upbringing by two gold medal Olympic swimming parents, not because of genetics.

Which just goes to show how ridiculous your grasp on genetics really is. To “believe” that the genes from two swimmer is automatically going to produce a super swimming baby in one generation.

You wouldn’t like it…I would just lay there and talk about intelligent stuff that would fly right over your head and undoubtedly cause the same angry reaction you are having here.

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I think it was Georg Bernhard Shaw, who, when a beatiful young women said, “What a child we could make, your brains and my looks” answered, “well, please consider that it might have my looks and your brains” .

There is something called “reversal to the mean”, which means that tall parents not necessarily get tall children.

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Your right Davey, as I sit looking at my German Shepard who’s looks and physical abilities are completely different than my mom’s shih tzu, I realize breeding of physical characteristics and abilities can’t be done in any animal, especially the human animal. These physical differences are all pure random chance or due to me raising my dog differently than she did hers.

Congratulations, you have convinced me.

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…and how many generations of breeding took place for your German Shepard and your mom’s shih tzu came about?

A lot more than 1.