Discussion: SCOTUS Takes Up Dispute Over Baker Not Making Cake For Same-Sex Couple

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Thinking of how this case might play out fills me with rage for the wealthy, white gay men and the carnival freaks like Milo who stumped for Trump.

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“Artists shouldn’t be forced to express what the government dictates. The commission ordered Jack to celebrate what his faith prohibits or to stop doing the work he loves. The Supreme Court has never compelled artistic expression, and doing so here would lead to less civility, diversity, and freedom for everyone, no matter their views on marriage,” Kristen Waggoner, the Alliance Defending Freedom who is representing Phillips, said in an email.

While this argument does have some merit and, perhaps, should be explored on some level, my question would be where would it end, realistically? What about artisan wine? Artisan cheese? Landscaping? Home restoration (which involves varying levels of artistic interpretation and talent)? Pet grooming? The list could be quite large, theoretically – and, I suspect many in the alt-right religioso groups, that’s their intent. Be careful, Neil Gorsusch – as this might very well backfire and many otherwise nice folks in the marketplace "find (some sort of) religion, if you get my drift.

That said, we all know how this is going to coming down. Such a fucking friend to the LGBTQ community your daddy, eh, Ivanka?

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Discrimination wrapped up in the mantle of “Religious Freedom” is a slippery slope. What if you’re an obese diabetic, and you go in for a refill on your insulin prescription, and the pharmacist is a biblical literalist? Would it be within his constitutional right to “Religions Freedom” to deny you your insulin because sloth and gluttony are listed in the bible as 2 of the 7 deadly sins?
1 Timothy 2:11-12: “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” If a University dean invokes “Religious Freedom” can he not hire any female teachers? How about all the busty women FOX “News” likes to use on their shows…can they all be canned under “Religious Freedom” if the network decided that their not being silent was against the networks strongly held religious beliefs?
This isn’t about a stupid cake! This is about one thing…when you open a business to the public, you can’t discriminate randomly against the public. Why as a business owner you would is beyond me. Anyone is welcome to buy the products my company sells, because money is money.

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I’d be willing to bet that we’ll hear some argument along the lines of “If a Christian baker can be forced to bake a cake for a gay wedding, then can a gay baker be required to bake a cake for the Westboro Baptist Church that says ‘God Hates Fags?’ Can a Jewish baker be forced to bake a cake in the shape of a Swastika for a gathering of NeoNazis?”

Of course those are obnoxious comparisons and it’s insulting to the LGBT couples to compare their desire for a wedding cake that celebrates their love for each other to neo-Nazis or WBC who want a symbol of their hatred towards others. But I’m not sure exactly where the line would be drawn and on what objective basis.

I suspect the couple’s attorneys have an answer to this challenge, though I don’t know if that answer takes the form of a suggestion for where to draw the line and why, or whether they will just say that the court doesn’t need to rule on that in this case, and it will have to be addressed if or when those situations occur and someone sues.

Meanwhile, as a practical matter, I wouldn’t eat any cake baked by someone under duress. Not unless I was closely observing them every second. For obvious reasons too gross for me to want to describe here.

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“The Trump administration is supporting Phillips in his argument that he can’t be forced to create a cake that violates his religious beliefs.”

So religious discrimination is a Constitutional right of any business that serves the public?

Well, then, I guess we can look forward to signs in shop windows that read:

“Kikes not served.”

And:

“Evangelicals need not apply.”

Or:

“No Ragheads or Papists.”

Generations of patriots whirl in their graves.

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Exactly. Nowhere in ‘The Holy Bible’ does it say you can’t piss or spit or … into the cake batter you’re using to bake for your enemy.

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Heaving into a brown paper bag.

https://twitter.com/imillhiser/status/938084020176478210

https://twitter.com/imillhiser/status/938084703034159104

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It’s a fucking CAKE, not “art”, nor an instrument of faith!

People are such hateful, ignorant assholes…

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This makes a lot of sense to me:

The lawyers should have made clear: Jack has the right not to bake a cake with a rainbow flag on it. But he doesn’t have a right to refuse to sell the same cake he bakes for everyone else because the couple is gay. Former would be compelled speech; latter is public accommodation.

— Matthew Chapman (@fawfulfan) December 5, 2017

Interesting. That would seem to solve the (hypothetical) problem of “would a Jewish baker be required to bake a cake in the shape of a swastika (or decorate it with one) if that’s what their neo-Nazi customer asked for?”

In the thread where that tweet comes from, there’s some dispute about what exactly the betrothed couple were insisting on, and what the baker was refusing to do.

I haven’t been following the case closely enough to know the answer. Perhaps someone here does. Did the baker refuse to sell them a wedding cake – any wedding cake – because it was for a same-sex marriage? Or did he say he’d sell them a cake but refused to decorate it in some way that he claims violates his beliefs?

At first blush, the idea of drawing the line between the “expression” of cake-decorating and the “public accommodation” of selling wedding cakes sounds like an appropriate attempt to balance competing rights.

But I’m not sure how well that would hold up to real-world scenarios. If the cake shop says “sure, we’ll sell a cake to anyone, and if you want, we’ll put the names of the bride and groom on the cakes, and little bride and groom figures on top, but we won’t put two male figures or two female figures on top and we won’t put the names on if both names seem to be the same gender,” then I’m not sure how the same-sex couple is getting the same service from the public accommodation.

Another approach would be, sell them the cake and put whatever they want on it, but don’t force a particular employee who objects on religious grounds to do the work. However, there’s the practical issue of a shop with just one employee (or owner-operator), or where all the employees share the same religious beliefs / bigotries. And then even if they hired someone from outside to do the task they don’t want to do themselves, they’re still hiring them, and would likely argue that goes against their belief because they’re still participating (and the question again would be "can the Jewish baker be compelled to hire someone to make the swastika cake if they won’t do it themselves). But it wouldn’t be their own “artistic expression,” so it would be a different argument.

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