Discussion for article #224827
Butbutbut, theyâre Dogâs Chosen! If we want to bring Baby Jeezus back, we need to back everything they do in His name!
Since the offensive began Tuesday, Israel has attacked at least 560 sites in Gaza, killing at least 41 people, the army said. Militants have fired more than 160 rockets at Israel.
The article failed to mention the Israeli casualties. I havenât seen any reports of casualties. Casualties are infrequent. I know that home made Gazan rockets only have a 50% chance of leaving Gaza. These rockets are erratic and generally fall on open fields.
Israel always names Hamas as the culprit. Many of these rockets, however, are crafted by small groups over which Hamas has but limited control.
It is easy to blame Hamas.
These small bands of defiant men need little beyond some sheet metal, a cheap welder, some sugar, a little fertilizer and explosives recovered from plentiful supplies of unexploded Israeli ordinance that Israel graciously leaves lying scattered about GazaâŚ
Israel supplies the motive with simple acts of denial: No concrete, no lumber, no nails, bolts or nuts. No exports. No jobs. No travel. A few teasing hours of electricity. A taste of water.
Who imagined that a belly filled with frustration and a heart starved for hope would do such things?
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Previous press reports have indicated that the Hamas rockets started after Israel bombed Gaza in response to the killing of the 3 Israeli teens.
The genesis of this violence is the murder of the 3 kids, which Israel has insisted was done by Hamas, though they offer no rationale or evidence that I have seen. They arrested two men they said were involved and then destroyed their homes, destroying evidence in the process.
My conclusion is that the prime belligerent here is Israel and Netanyahu and that they have escalated 3 tragic and senseless murders into a broader war, killing about ten times as many people according to other press reports.
This TPM report is highly flawed.
actually, you have it reversed. The blockade is in response to Hamas, not the other way around. As for building materials, Israel allows building materials into Gaza to be used by the UN, not by private builders, since that material may be used to build arms smuggling tunnels, bunkers, and, of course, rockets.
While not all rockets are launched by Hamas, you cannot exonerate Hamas unless it makes an effort to crack down on those groups. Hamas security people certainly know where to find Islamic Jihad in Gaza, so if Islamic Jihad launches rockets, and Hamas, which claims authority in Gaza, does nothing to prevent it, then Hamas bears responsibility.
And as far as the accuracy of the rockets go, no country would tolerate rocket attacks from a neighbor if they could help prevent it. Dozens of Israelis have been killed and hundreds injured in rocket attacks. And the risk has only increased, as hamas smuggling from Iran has improved their missile stock, allowing them to launch missiles as Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Should Israel allow Hamas to bombard them until someone is killed? How many dead Israelis would justify a response by Israel?
Let me make this clearâI support two states, and I have no patience for those people who says Israel can do no wrong. Itâs done plenty wrong, and it needs to negotiate a peace deal with the PA sooner rather than later. But there is absolutely no way to rationalize or defend Hamas. There was a ceasefire since the last major Israeli operation; this current bout of violence in Gaza began with rockets launched from Gaza, breaking the ceasefire. And, as always happens, the violence will end when Hamas decides to honor the ceasefire again. Seems like the easiest way to avoid all of this would be for Hamas to stop launching and allowing the launch of rockets from itâs territory.
Hamas is not fighting for freedom, or liberty, or rights. Read itâs charterâitâs fighting for the destruction of Israel.
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Yes.
Its even worse when you look at how Israel kept details of the 100 call (like our 911) under wraps for 3 weeks. The Israeli government knew that gunfire was heard on the tapes. The teens bloody car was found quickly. The police had a pretty good idea that the teens were dead but the government allowed people to get more and more worked up and angry.
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Wow. If you have any links to press reports on that, it would be much appreciated. Likewise, your point on the rockets. These things are routinely excised from press reports here.
Hamas is weak. Israel sees to them being weak.
I see that Israel is boasting of cutting of the water to Hamas leadership:
the water supply at the ârefugee campâ neighborhood of Shati in Gaza has been cut off by the Israeli attacks. This is seen as personally targeting Hamas âPrime Ministerâ Ismail Haniya, who lives in Shati. As an expert said â Haniya will not be showering in his home in the coming days.
There are 42,000 people in the Al Shati refuge camp. cutting off water creates a humanitarian situation. State of Palestine
This collective punishment - cutting off of essential water in a water starved state- constitutes a war crime.
Another expert noted that a similar strategy was pursued by the IDF in the 2006 Second Lebanon War, in which the entire Beirut neighborhood that housed Hizbullahâs men â the Dahia â was turned to rubble. The Jewish Press
I donât know how Israel expects police to operate without electricity, but it looks like the Israelis are considering cutting the already insufficient electricity to millions of people:
Israel should âshut off the electricity in the West Bank and Gazaâ in response to rocket fire in the south and the abduction of three Israeli teens earlier this month, Deputy Defense Minister Danny Danon said Sunday.
âIn my opinion there is room for extensive actions against the civilian population,â Danon said in an interview with Radio Darom. âI am saying something harsh here, but I believe it. Times Of Israel
Cut off power to millions? More collective punishment of the Palestinians. Israel is becoming a pariah state.
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That simply isnât true. Throughout the month of June there was a radical expansion of rocket attacks from Gaza, with an increase towards the end of the month. The Israeli airstrikes were in response to Hamas rocket attacks, not a catalyst for them.
You can check wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014#June
and if you consider that to be too supportive of Israel, hereâs Al-Jazeera: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/israeli-airstrikes-attack-targets-gaza-201462984832208983.html
Details of the â100Ⲡcall (the local equivalent of 911) and what investigators discovered in the car used for the kidnapping of three Israeli teens earlier this month were well known by security service heads, top ministers â and even journalists â early on in the affair; but not by the public because it was all placed and kept under a tightly held gag order. The blood found in the car, the sound of gun shots in the emergency call, evidence of live ammunition and the fact that there hasnât been a single instance of two or more people being held hostage in the West Bank in decades â all that led to a single logical assumption: the teens were no longer alive. Yet at the same time, the Israeli public was told the teens were being held by Hamas, and a public campaign calling for their return was launched.Noam Sheizaf
From during the search:
But as the operation draws deeper into its second week and the Palestinian death toll rises and the streets come alive with protests, perhaps shifting Palestinian public sentiment more toward Hamas, the question is whether the Israeli citizenry should be given more of the facts. Should the forensic information and other evidence be openly relayed to the public or, at least, no longer stifled by court order? In other words, does Israelâs citizenry have the right to know whether its soldiers, in turning over every stone, are likely looking for captives or corpses Times Of Israel
Andy, Iâll look for an article I posted in Prime recently. It was discussing that Gaza had launched 20 rockets overnight and that 9 hit Israel. The article then went on to list the fields and places the rockets fell and how many had been knocked out by the âIron Domeâ defenses. The only casualties were from âshock.â
I wonder how many âshockâ casualties there are in Gaza after 500+ bombing raids?
It is absolutely absurd to say that Hamas is âweakâ in Gaza. It controls the schools, the police, the government, the military, etc. You could say that Hamas canât control Islamic Jihad if it tried to and failed, but thereâs no evidence that it ever tried to.
The Gaza police are Hamas police, so I donât know that Israel particularly cares how they operate.
As for cutting off water and electricity, I certainly oppose cutting off water, and condemn Israel for it. Electricity becomes more complexâeg., if Israel could pinpoint an area where rockets were being built and that would help curtail rocket attacks which would then help curtail Israeli bombings, such things might be the lesser of two evils, but I would say that given Israelâs record, it would probably be done badly and punitively. So Iâd say Israel probably shouldnât do it, and if they do it, Iâll probably condemn it.
See, itâs possible to sympathize with a country or an organization and still condemn it. Would be nice if some of the outraged humanitarians who damn everything Israel does could occasionally spare some opprobrium for Hamas and Co.
Rationalizing and excusing Hamas doesnât do the Palestinian people it victimizes any favors.
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Just curiousâdo you think that if Israel did suffer casualties, it would be allowed to respond? Do you think a country having rockets launched at itâs citizens (including, you know, children) needs to wait until some children are killed before they respond?
actually, you have it reversed. The blockade is in response to Hamas, not the other way around.
This conflict is far past the who-hit-who-first stage.
Uberjude: Hamas security people certainly know where to find Islamic Jihad in GazaâŚ
Honestly, Hamas is weak.
Israel wants them weak. They want the people to see them as pathetic weaklings. Just as they have done prior to other invasions, Israel is again targeting and killing the police that you say should be stopping the rockets.
Israel is not acting in good faith here. Not at all:
The army said it attacked more than 160 sites in Gaza early Wednesday, including 118 concealed rockets launching sites, six Hamas compounds - including naval police and national security compounds CBS NEWS
Palestinians been starved, denied and humiliated, all key parts of the formula of defiance. The Israeli right needs the Palestinians to fight back - a little. It helps with the Israeli rights plans to get and keep it all.
Uberjude: As for building materials, Israel allows building materials into Gaza to be used by the UN, not by private builders, since that material may be used to build arms smuggling tunnels, bunkers, and, of course, rockets.
So no one in Gaza can rebuild the homes that Israelis destroy? Look at the number of rockets being fired and the number of Israeli airstrikes. Its been 5 air strikes per home made rocket recently.
As for the UN, the Israelis have pretty much shut them down as well:
12 February 2014 â More than 20 vital United Nations construction projects for schools and housing in Gaza are stalled, and social and economic conditions are worsening UN.ORG
For Andy:
Hereâs the timeline for the second day the 3 teens were missing. Note the map at about 7pm, they had found the car, which we later learn had blood and bullets. Haaretz
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Sure they can respond, with directed response and in proportion. But look at how Israel responds with widespread attacks including attacks on infrastructure and even police and security forces. Look at the size of the Israeli air strikes inside highly populated urban areas AND the significant loss of civilian life. Weâre watching war crimes being committed by Israel.
There are no pictures with multiple simultaneous explosions in Israel while the headlines are full of photos of Gaza with two or three concurrent explosions - or massive explosions - from Israeli bombings. Check out this CBS video. The large blast in Gaza is tremendous.
a blurb from February saying things were stalled because of violence isnât too conclusive in July. If you looked at the news from March, youâd see that Israel actually started letting in material for private construction as well, so things are hardly âshut down.â So we were both wrong, and Israelâs policies are actually more open than we imagined.
As for he order of rocket vs bombing, it was another poster who stated that the rockets were a response to israeli airstrikes. That is simply not true.
As for the homes destroyed, perhaps Hamas should stop storing supplies in those homes, perhaps hamas commanders should stop living among civilians, perhaps Hamas should stop launching rockets from densely populated civilians neighborhoods.
and give me a break, you saying âHamas is weakâ doesnât constitute evidence. Hamas is the government of Gaza, it controls it pretty much totally. Hereâs a study from a couple of years agoâif you have evidence to the contrary, happy to consider it:
and hereâs an article from last month making the same point, from a source that can hardly be accused of a pro-Israel bias:
Finally, again, do you have any answers as to when a country should be allowed to respond to attacks on its citizens?
Do you realize that you are arguing that there is construction in Gaza, UN buildings? Even in the face of the UN decrying that they have had continued trouble building humanitarian projects. Think what you are talking about: the UN has to basically beg to build a hospital in Gaza.
What about homes and businesses?
As for the homes destroyed, perhaps Hamas should stop storing supplies in those homes
You know that a lot of homes are targeted because a family member is a suspect - nothing else - a suspect. What of their neighbors living (or now dying) in close proximity to Israeli targets? Many other homes just have the misfortune to be placed underneath a 500 pound bomb, as weâve learned from our own precision laser-like collateral-damage filled attacks around the worldâŚ
Yes, I am still saying the Hamas government is weak. Your article was about politics but it did have a few tidbits of information that make me think you merely provided a link without reading it. Why else would you want to make my points for me:
As I walked down a Gaza street with a Palestinian acquaintance, I heard the âclop-clopâ of horse hooves followed by a warm âAl-salam âalaykumâ greeting and wave from the rider. I turned to see a man wearing a T-shirt and baseball cap labeled with the name of the Gaza mounted police force.
Perhaps because of the fuel shortage, the Gaza Mounties (unlike their Canadian counterparts) actually still patrol on horseback. As he rode on, my acquaintance remarked sardonically, âThose are our knights.â
In a visit to Gaza in May 2012, I did see some exotic or unusual elements to be sure: a public transportation system that consisted of hailing any passing car and paying a modest amount to ride with a driver going the same direction
Oh my. And the schools you say Hamas runs? your article describes how the UN
A large portion of the educational system of Gaza is managed by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), not the government. Approximately 43 percent of Gazaâs students attend UNRWA schools; but since these only go through the ninth grade, UNRWA actually educates a majority of students in the years it covers.
Again, you must not have read your own article to say these things and still give that link:
Uberjude: Hamas is the government of Gaza, it controls it pretty much totally. Hereâs a study from a couple of years agoâif you have evidence to the contrary, happy to consider it:
Go back and read what you posted to support your claims about the strength of Hamas:
There are three outstanding legal issues that the Gaza government has not been able to confront effectively. First, there is no clearly legitimate way to make law. The problem is not unique to Gaza. Even after five years of a legislative vacuum in the West Bank, Abbas, who claims the authority to issue laws by decree in the absence of parliament, generally avoids decree laws unconnected to matters of pressing necessity or technical issues. And those decrees he does issue are not acknowledged or enforced in Gaza courts, since the Gaza government holds that the parliament is still in session.
Gaza has devised its own ad hoc legislative mechanism. The Diwan and cabinet continue to develop legislative proposals and submit them to a rump parliament that meets in Gaza every two weeks. All non-Hamas members boycott the parliament, Hamas members in the West Bank are barred from entering the parliamentâs meeting place in Ramallah, and large numbers of Hamas deputies are in Israeli prisons. But the Gaza-based deputies from Hamas do meet and claim that they hold proxies from jailed deputies as well as consult Hamas deputies in the West Bank by telephone. Such devices allow them to assert that they have a quorum and to get majority votes. Until at least 2009âthe year that Gaza regards President Abbasâs term as having expiredâthe Gaza parliament would then submit laws to President Abbas, who ignored them.
Hamas is weak. Israel takes advantage of the weakness.
Letâs see, 43 percent is a minority, correct? but of course, that overlooks the fact that even in those schools, Hamas has influence over curriculum. Thus, for example UNRWA schools canât teach a human rights curriculum or encourage peaceful resistance because of the objections ofâguess who?
As far as the legal issues, you miss the point, Hamas is the law. Look at the second article (I edited my post so you may not have seen it), from al-Monitor., the entire point of which was that Hamasâ security is in control of gaza. They control the law, because they control the security and the courts. the whole point of the article is that even after reconciliation, Hamas is still in control of Gaza.
Arguing that there are difficulties in getting things built is not at all the same thing as things not being built. And like I said, a month later, Israel eased up on private construction. There are times when Israel is stricter, and more relaxed, but clearly things are being built, because every few years, Israel knocks things down, and new buildings get put up.
But you tell meâif Gazans are so desperate for supplies (and they are), perhaps you might want to consider why Hamas and Co. uses those precious supplies to build bunkers and tunnels?
As for Israelâs targeting policies, letâs narrow it down. Are you saying Israel canât target a suspected arms factory, or armory, or Hamas official, because they may be in the proximity of civilians. Do you think there are any of those that arenât in proximity to civilians? Hamas launches attacks from civilian areas, Hamas bases itself in civilian areas, so by your logic, how could Israel target Hamas at all?
But please read the second articleâIâll put it up again http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/tr/originals/2014/06/gaza-hamas-still-in-control-unity-government.html
This is from less than a month ago. Hamas is in control.
âeven police and security forces?â Who do you think controls the police and security forces? Thatâs what Hamas is. Are you unaware that security in Gaza is under Hamas control?
And speaking of security, law enforcement and security are all predicated on disproportionate response. When somebody commits a crimeâsay mugs someone for a hundred bucksâwe donât say âWell, at ten dollars an hour, this would take ten hours to pay off, so weâll imprison you for ten hours.â We punish him disproportionately. Thatâs how deterrence works. If Hamas could launch half a dozen rockets and know that Israel would respond with half a dozen missiles, then why not shoot the rockets? Itâs all even. Any country could attack any other country, because even if he victim were more powerful, they could only respond proportionately.
It is perfectly reasonable to say âthey have stockpiled rockets, letâs destroy those stockpiles,letâs destroy their infrastructure, and letâs teach them that attacking us isnât worth the cost.â If you donât pay a price, then why not do it?
But Iâm curiousâhow do you feel about targeted killing? that was the most limited form of response possible, and a lot of people have a problem with that.
Again, you better reread those articles, which do not reflect a powerful Hamas. They show a weak Hamas losing ever more power. I wonât even begin to go into what their cover picture depicts:
After seven years in power, Hamas has handed over its government in Gaza to the unity government headed by Rami Hamdallah in accordance with the reconciliation agreement signed with its political rival Fatah. However, the movement did not waive its security control of the Gaza Strip.
MoreâŚ
A source in the Hamas leadership explained that the movement would not give up control over the Gaza Strip with such ease and speed, and that its influence will continue despite the formation of a national consensus government and the handing over of official ministries.
âHamas will preserve its presence in Gaza. The fact that it is not in power does not mean the end of its presence in the Gaza Strip. Hamas has the security services, according to the Cairo agreement, and it still holds the majority in the Legislative Council, which enables it to impede anything it wants in the government.â
Your link really presents an amazing picture of a weak squabbling government nearly out of control:
âHamas was forced to hand over the government in the Gaza Strip after the tight siege imposed on it. Thus, it was no longer responsible before the Palestinian citizen to provide a living, open the crossings or introduce basic materials, but we are still in control without being in power,â he said.
Were talking about a place with a GDP of $2,900. Weâre talking about a state that is forbidden to export what few goods they could produce if they werenât forbidden to import materials used to manufacture goods.
Weâre talking about the UN needing to beg Israel to go in and help provide live-saving services because the local government is too poor (see above export/import problems) to manage.
Israel has created this hell.
The people in Gaza are in a virtual concentration camp. Their oppressors are free to reign down bombs, shut off the water, stop the flow of food and turn out the lights whenever it suits their fancy.
Its as if Israel wants a violent reaction. Which, I believe, those in power in Israel actually do want. They are trolling for Palestinians to make their weak responses which allows Israel to make its overwhelming responses.
More rubble, more despair and ever closer to Israel getting it all.
The world sees this. The only thing saving Israel is the USA. That wonât continue forever and wonât continue much longer before we too agree that Israel has become the ugly thing which they have railed against for so long.