Discussion for article #243586
“It appears these people were very good at hiding their intentions,” said David Schanzer, a Duke University public policy professor who runs a center that studies terrorism. “What this situation shows is it’s not a fool-proof system … A hundred percent prevention is not achievable.”
Right, except all the guns. And the ammunition. How could we have tracked that?
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As long as your warning systems are barred from alerting on double-digit purchases of non-hunting weapons and ammunition, yep, it’s going to be a problem.
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Sounds like they followed Edward Snowden’s advice.
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"The couple, who lived quietly in a two-bedroom townhouse with their 6-month-old daughter and Farook’s mother…"
Media reports of the arsenal, target shooting, the weapons and bomb making tools in the garage, lead me to wonder the culpability of the mother in all this. Wouldn't she be guilty of some sort of conspiracy/aiding and abetting, etc crimes? Could she plausibly convince a jury she was blind to everything, and if she admitted to being aware of the weapons, bombs and tools, being in no way alarmed or suspicious enough to report it?Not typically if she only knew about the bombs and guns. Generally we don’t have laws that make reporting like that a responsibility. Now, if she knew about their intentions or in any way helped (keeping quiet is generally not against the law), the law might be different, especially under terrorism laws.
Both the father and mother have been put on the terror watch list as of yesterday. The father because of his many trips to Pakistan and they must figure the mother was not so ignorant of everything. Yesterday, I mentioned that the shooters had a $28,500.00 deposit into their account a couple weeks before the shooting. Turns out it was an online loan:
A source told Reuters that Prosper, a San Francisco-based online lender, made the $28,500 loan to Farook.
One of the Reuters government sources said Farook and Malik apparently pursued a scenario previously followed by U.S.-based militants by draining their bank accounts and maxing out credit lines before embarking on what they believe to be a suicide mission, knowing that they would not have to pay off the debts.
Prosper evaluates borrowers for loans, which are originated by third-party bank WebBank. Prosper then sells the loans off to investors.
Farook transferred $15,000 of that money into his mothers account. Hard to make the case that she was totally in the dark living in the same condo.
The mother should have a lien slapped on her account. She should not profit or be allowed to keep that money.
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How many times have you been floored by a seemingly out-of-the-blue divorce, abandonment, discovery of infidelity, or worse by a couple who you thought were rock-solid and then find yourself once again confronted by the old truth that you never, ever really know what’s going on in someone else’s marriage?
Marriage is the perfect arrangement for spinning off down into the loony world that ends in terrorism. Inherently private, no need to communicate electronically (if both agree, that is–dog help the spouse who makes that decision unilaterally), a perfect cover for building a safe house/base of operation.
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If I know someone possesses bombs, an illegal weapon, and they later use them to kill people I have no legal problems? Would that hold if I knew they were manufacturing anthrax and had the technology to weaponize it? If I was aware they’d stolen smallpox viruses that could theoretically infect people? What illegal item can they own with the potential to inflict casualties, yet I’m unaware that’s their intent, before I suffer legal sanctions for failure to report it to authorities? I can passively keep confidential my knowledge they have ANYTHING illegal having the capability to inflict mass casualties and damage? If I knew someone was carrying a bomb onto a plane, and the plane explodes, I’m free of any guilt because I tell the police “Yeah, I knew he had the bomb on the plane. BUT I DIDN’T PERSONALLY KNOW HE INTENDED TO USE IT!”? Really?
I’m actually surprised that they didn’t manage to kill many, many more people at the party. Did they get spooked? Also, did they really believe they were going to get away and somehow just go on with their lives? This thing about the loan - knowing they wouldn’t have to pay it back - seems to indicate they knew they would die. So why high-tail it out of the party? Unless they thought their bombs were going to kill the rest?
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Yes and no. There’s a fine line here, but yes, in general, we have no reporting requirements under the law. In this situation it’s pretty clear that anyone who knew anything should have reported, but we, frankly, are getting into a very slippery slope here. Lots of innocent people can get seriously embroiled in situations because reporters are nut jobs too. So then police spend inordinate amounts of time running down leads that are nothing while sacrificing manpower for necessities. Maybe that’s worthwhile, but we need to deal with the practical aspect of mandatory reporting too.
A case in point would be the Charleston shooter’s roommate. He’s been arrested, not specifically because he knew (he did for about six months that Dylan was going to do something), but because he lied to law enforcement about it when they asked.
So here’s the rub: There are other ways to lock someone up. You know someone is taking a bomb on a plane, there are probably federal rules related to that specific incident and any required reporting. You know your neighbor is stockpiling weapons and you don’t speak up, they can’t do anything to you in that specific situation in most cases without an additional step. Did you lie to law enforcement? Did you drive him to the scene?
The law doesn’t hold you responsible for being an awful human being. I don’t know the answer.
EDIT: I want to point out that this is exactly the problem our intelligence agencies are coping with…so much info they can’t process it.
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I don’t want to belabor this. However, I could actually be personally aware, actually view, someone weaponizing Anthrax in their basement. Later that same person kills hundreds with that Anthrax. The police become aware I saw the Anthrax lab and weaponizing equipment, I even admit it to them. And I walk, free of any legal difficulties (other than possible civil suits by those hurt, of course)?
Cameras and a sniffer dogs at every cash register so it becomes things detecting rather than people reporting?
Wonder what tech progress in the sniffing world since this 2013 Popular Science article?
I know you aren’t belaboring. Again, there is nuance here. There may be very specific reporting requirements related to Anthrax because the nature of what it is that can get you arrested, so I can’t speak to that issue. Even if the person isn’t planning on using the Anthrax for destructive means (likely they are) an accident could have devastating impact. I’m really speaking in general about the mother in relation to whether she could get in trouble for not reporting the guns and bombs. Criminal liability for failure to report is going to turn on the additional complicity. In this case, unless they can prove she had some sort of part in it by taking an additional step, then she’s likely clear.
That said, California or the county could have a reporting requirement that I’m unaware of, but it’s very atypical.
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OK. I tend to think a garage full of pipe bombs unintentionally exploding might be marginally analogous to an Anthrax accident, but I’ll leave this lie for now. Obviously depending on observant, civic minded individuals intimately aware of looming death and destruction isn’t going to work.
I don’t think anyone questions whether there is a moral requirement to report. Like I said, it’s not against the law to be an awful human. Law enforcement can probably find another way to get her if they want to, it’s just not going to be on the reporting issue.
If someone’s life is in danger, you aren’t required to save them either. Let’s say someone gets hit by a car, you can walk away and not call the squad and it’s legal. I just got my CPR certifications. In my state, if I help someone who is choking, they can’t sue me for any damage I may cause (ie, you commonly will break the sternum or the ribs). Some states, however, make you liable if you harm someone the minute you take an action toward saving them. When someone collapses in front of you, do you give them CPR? I would even though it could be some sort of diabetic issue, but I can’t tell until the squad arrives. If they didn’t need CPR and I broke their ribs administering it, then I can be personally liable. So what do you choose? Do you assume the guy on the ground would still be grateful, or do you lose your financial stability for your wrong decision?
It’s all really complicated.
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And of course it is even more difficult to profile and investigate potential terrorists of the white supremacy/anti abortion ilk. There are tens of thousands of them living all across America while the potential Muslim terrorist demographic is much, much smaller.
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How many have been gobsmacked by their own husband/wife suddenly demanding a divorce let alone the neighbors?
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Why even target the party rather than a much larger, more symbolic anti American/Western culture venue like a federal building or shopping mall? Did the shooter have a personal vendetta against one person he worked with that led to him deciding the time was right to launch the attack they had obviously planned for some time? Seems to me they wasted a lot of influence by targeting a group of people who worked with disabled children rather than using their weapons on a more governmental target. Real amateurs it seems who literally shot their wads too soon and at a target that makes them pariahs even to most radicalized ISIS sympathizers.
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The money is a pittance. I am wondering about the infant daughter. Is she in protective custody or does the grandmother have her? Farouk’s parents taught their son to hate and they will teach their innocent grandchild to hate if she is not protected from them.