Discussion: Hamas: Gaza War Not Over Until Israel Lifts Blockade

Discussion for article #226080

Ummm, according to my reading, Hamas won the election, and only started fighting after Fatah refused to recognize their victory. It may be a semantic difference, and was certainly a disaster for the Palestinians in Gaza, but saying they “seized power” is equivalent of saying Obama “seized power” in 2008.

Second, why can’t Israel use ground-penetrating radar and seismic mapping to locate and shut down the tunnels?

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This sounds awfully familiar. Bush gave an ultimatum to Saddam to disarm or we will attack you. Saddam disarmed (or was already disarmed when Bush made the threat), then Bush attacked an unarmed country.

The moral is to never disarm. After all, how many Americans have given up their guns?

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As brutally disproportionate, savage, and, indeed, self-defeating as Israel’s Gaza attack and entire territories policy has been for at least 30 years, people need to avoid falling for Hamas’s own propaganda. This is not a group bravely fighting for the betterment of Gaza’s people. It is a vile hate group committed to violence, and caring little about the deaths of its own people.

Consider this charming quote just days ago from Hamas’s official spokesman: “We all remember how the Jews used to slaughter Christians, in order to mix their blood in their holy matzos. This is not a figment of imagination or something taken from a film. It is a fact, acknowledged by their own books and by historical evidence. It happened everywhere, here and there.” When challenged on this by Wolf Blitzer, the spokesman stood firmly by it.

Consider also the Hamas charter, which not only dismisses any peace option and vows warfare until Israel ceases to exist, but also declares that the true struggle cannot be won until all Jews worldwide are dead.

As Paul Waldman well said it recently, “we can hold in our minds two thoughts that seem incompatible only to the most morally simpleminded: Both that Hamas is monstrous for putting rockets near places where hundreds of people are huddling to escape the fighting, and that Israel is wrong for taking the bait and bombing the school or hospital anyway.”

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Hamas is the Black Knight in a Monty Python skit.

This is a direct falsehood. Chapter 21 of the Hamas Charter specifically talks about Jews living peacefully as citizens of their eventual Islamic state. This is clear, direct and unequivocal.

Hamas regards the establishment of Israel by the European powers as illegal, and believe the principles of Zionism, a state created exclusively for a particular nationality, to be racist. What they want to “destroy” is that government they regard as illegal. (This is also true for Iran and other Arab countries hostile to the government of Israel).

The part in the charter about killing every last jew is a reference to in battles and stems from a rather silly quote from the Qoran about which trees shelter Jews and which ones will reveal them. The author (killed by Israel a long time ago) was trying to say that G_d is on Hamas side and victory was assured, but between the translation and the author’s lack of skill, the meaning is quite garbled and subject to malicious misquoting by Hasbara sources. The government of Israel has been making hay off his poor syntax for well over a decade.

I notice you say nothing about Hamas’s proud and public embrace of the blood libel. As to the notorious passage in their charter – just “poor syntax”? Fascinating. Are you aware that Hamas airs children’s TV shows with costumed characters inculcating slaughter of Jews? (Presumably you’ll deny that as well.) And “poor syntax” is an excuse for a passage that says, directly, that Islam can only triumph when Jews are wiped from the earth?

But frankly, that single passage is secondary to the larger and most blatant issue: Hamas is dedicated to Israel’s destruction. They are really very open about it. They have no chance of ever achieving that aim, but they openly declare that their violence will continue so long as Israel exists – their charter, whatever charitable interpretations you strain to put on it, directly rejects and condemns all peace negotiations. You evidently see that as a heroic fight for principle.

You seem to agree with the view that Israel, as a Jewish state, is inherently wrong and should not exist… which, of course, means subscribing to the dangerously naive idea that a Muslim majority would treat a Jewish minority in their midst with peace and harmony, since only Israelis can ever be violent oppressors, right? A single, mixed state may be a lovely idea in the abstract, but it means incredible and permanent peril for Jews in the region – being surrounded by people who tell the world that Jews ritually kill non-Jews and use their blood for matzoh is not safety. Historically, Jews have good reason not to place their safety exclusively at the sufferance of others.

That does not, of course, justify Israel’s mindless attempts to seize the territories and drive out the Arab population. But it does justify the 2-state solution supported by the Israeli left (and much of the world), and which is vehemently rejected by Hamas with promises of permanent violence.

I believe we have now said as much to each other as has any value. Israel being very much in the wrong does not put Hamas in the right. If you believe it does, we are not in the same universe.

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I had exactly that thought comparing Hamas to the Black Knight. Two thousand people die, billions of dollars in damage done, an economy in shambles, but Hamas will still threaten Israel. Sitting in the lavish apartments and mansions in Beruit and Bahrain, the leaders of Hamas will drive their Mercedes and wear their Rolexes and be sure their wives have Louis Vautain bags. The deaths of the ordinary Palestinians: Just a means for these grifters to enrich themselves.

We were talking about the charter. Please excuse me, I referred to Article 21, I should have said Article 31 of the Hamas charter.

  • The People of Other Faiths Article 3 1:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement that takes care of human rights and follows the tolerance of Islam with respect to people of other faiths. Never does it attack any of them except those who show enmity toward it or stand in its path to stop the movement or waste its efforts.

In the shadow of Islam it is possible for the followers of the three religions-Islam, Christianity, and Judaism-to live in peace and harmony, and this peace and harmony is possible only under Islam: The history of the past and present is the best written witness for that.

Followers of other religions should stop fighting Islam in ruling this area, because when they rule, there will only be murdering, punishing, and banishing, because they make life hard for their own people, not to mention the followers of other religions. The past and present are full of examples which prove this. [Qoran verses follow]

I expect your accusation of bloodthirster anti-Jewish children’s shows to have equal substance to your claim that the Hamas charter calls for the extermination of Jews.

Link: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-islamist-mouseketeers-hamas-mickey-mouse-teaches-jihad-a-481940.html

Since you can’t now deny the show exists (it received considerable media attention, and was still on the air at least as of 2013), I assume you will dismiss its invocations for anti-Jewish violence as heroic resistance against Israeli occupiers. So be it. You are entitled to your interpretation.

BUT I notice that you yet again dodge Hamas’s extremely public endorsement of the blood libel. You sneer that I’m inventing stories to malign poor innocent Hamas, yet you don’t want to face the very worst and most undeniable: their own public endorsement of the most vile anti-semitic myth. You seem to be not only special-pleading, but also cherry picking.

I’m assuming you don’t believe the blood libel is true (you repeatedly insist Hamas isn’t anti-Jewish – a claim which, however dubious, suggests that you do see anti-Jewish bigotry as a bad thing) – yet you absolutely refuse to consider that Hamas’s embrace of this long-deadly poison means anything about their motives and values, or suggests that they do in fact harbor deep hatred of Jews as Jews?

If you admire an organization that proudly endorses such grotesque evils – insisting that it can’t be taking bigoted positions even as it loudly tells the world that it is – we really do have nothing to say to each other. Condemning Israel’s wrongdoing doesn’t require glorification of Hamas.