Discussion: Gillibrand On Calling For Franken To Resign: 'Enough Was Enough'

Was I ranting and raging? Who is supposed to admit to making a mistake? I am certain I heard Al make many heartfelt apologies to these women, his colleagues, his constituents, and his family. Not sure I have ever seen a disgraced public servant handle it better - especially if much of the behavior was fairly innocent or some of the accusations were contrived. Don’t know if I have seen such a powerful person brought so low by so little. We have a diaper wearing hooker frequenter in the Senate.

I don’t think I ever heard KG admit that she might have handled things differently or has remorse.

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I’m just saying it’s an obvious double standard. And double standards are bad.

The people upset with Gillibrand in this thread are focusing their anger incorrectly. If you think the strength of the Democratic Party was weakened when Franken resigned, then your anger should be at him for his own actions which jeopardized his seat. It should not be directed at a woman who pointed out that his behavior toward women is unacceptable.

This logic gives away the game in the same way that people are defending those kids who attacked that Native American man on the steps of the Lincoln memorial by saying “this is just high schoolers being high schoolers.” Yes; that enabling is the entire problem.

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I’m not arguing she’s not ambitious. I think it’s perfectly normal to be ambitious in politics. I think women in politics have to be ambitious to compete with men and fight for meager territory. There’s a reason when we see clips of the female members of Congress in the 80s and 90s they’re all dressed in Murphy Brown outfits. The only existing mental framework for Americans was politics = men so the women also had to dress like and act like men. So, ambition. But double punishing women for A) having to fight harder than men and then B) having ambition (probably necessary for A) is wrongheaded.

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I reject your assertion. We can be mad at both. Without due process, we don’t even have the facts about what Al did or didn’t do. I think KG and anyone else in the Senate who pressured Al gave in to the frenzied moment and behaved rashly and blew a hole in our leadership and team that did not HAVE to happen. It might have still happened. It might have been necessary. We will never know.

Double standards? Like saying women are kick ass, gonna show those men, gonna clean house, they are strong, independent, fearless, Nancy’s gonna cut his balls off…and oh…wait. Mean men. Somebody said something not so nice. Disagree with a woman and you are a misogynist. Play the sex card in EVERY SINGLE SCENARIO. Double standards like that? Yes…they are bad.

This is the big league. I don’t really hear HRC or KG claiming misogyny as much as the greek chorus. I think HRC and KG got where they are cause they can handle the big leagues, and they know they might get bopped on the nose occasionally. Same with Feinstein and Pelosi and Klobuchar, and every other woman on the big stage. They made it! They have the chops. We need to stop muddying the waters and dividing ourselves on The Left over this stuff. Any man on the liberal bandwagon is so over this already.

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Ultimately, Al Franken is the sole person responsible for his own actions and for his decisions, including his decision to resign. Insisting otherwise is a disingenuous argument to me. We aren’t going to agree on this.

Saying his career is worth more than the rights of women is simply wrong. And to me, that is the premise your argument rests on.

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I completely agree, and I speak as a son of an ambitious mother who was a pioneer in her field, and did she ever put up with a lot of crap from men, most of whom were her inferiors.

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I hope Franken makes a return to politics. For many years I contributed to his campaigns and would do so again should he return.

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Certainly we can’t make any headway when you falsely assert an argument is based on what you choose to hear, instead of what was plainly said. Nobody said his career was worth more than a woman’s rights. You display a slanted perspective if you think women have different rights than men…and not a single woman’s rights were affected by Al. Nor would have been if he was given due process.

And nobody said that Al wasn’t responsible for his actions. And who said HE didn’t take responsibility for them? More so than any other high ranking American…his departure was without acrimony or blaming. He was humiliated as deeply as a lofty persona can be…for FAR FAR less than many who still retain office and prestige.

Try to step back and judge modern day men with some measure of credit. A vast majority of men have never raped anyone. Have voted for decades and decades for every policy that brought more fairness. Have accomodated to the work force, upper management, military, college, medicine, and government being nearly 50% or more WOMEN. Have treated their neighbors, wives, daughters with great sensitivity and fairness…and voted at every step to enhance that.

You started this by basically claiming men were backslapping Franken and congratulating him on his …what? Touching sideboob in a crowded photo? And then successfully sticking it to women world wide by getting…kicked out of the Senate? Because Boys Will Be Boys?

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Here’s my response to your post, it’s short, under 2 minutes. Let me know what you think, because maybe I’m poorly communicating my own base assumptions. But here is a woman who can clearly articulate them. (This was a talk about Al Franken at the time.)

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That makes her wrong on Franken."

True, but the bigger problem is she was wrong on due process. And worse, she(not alone) torpedoed the precedent of requiring swift and thorough due process.

And that’s why Bart O’Kavanaugh is an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court.

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Or they were waiting for, you know, due process, which never happened?

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I find that pretty wild and unhelpful. It was a pastiche, a kaleidoscope of every grievance ever thru all of time. Most women in America do not live in that world. Because they live NOW. Most men in America do not live in that world. Most men in America are petrified and the number of things they can be ruined for (summarily upon accusation) is growing.

70% of the white men in this country had precious little to do with setting that up. Even fewer are the beneficiaries and have to grind along with no extra real perks. I know, they don’t have to worry about being shot in the back by white cops.

Basing an argument or political action about dealing with White Men is a mistake. Just like making a special law for or against black people is a mistake. Or making a law against women’s freedom or activities is a mistake. If you make all the additive political actions for everyone, and the restrictive political actions against wealth and power…you will do better.

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The problem with your analysis is you’re assuming the charges are true without giving the accused the benefit of due process. Four of the allegations were anonymous, Tweedon was a Republican operative and Roger Stone had flagged that it was"Franken’s turn for a bumpy ride" (or words to that effect). So maybe we should have spent some time examining the charges before pulling the lever?

As my Ole Mom used to say, "First the trial, then the hanging."

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I don’t think anything she said is wrong. I think there might be a lack of political will to actually fix the problems. I’m choosing not to slow progress.

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About 3% of rapists ever see jail and no more than 5% of accusations of rape are false. We definitely don’t have a “lack of due process for men” problem. This was a political problem. A problem of Al Franken’s making.

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I didn’t claim we did, I pointed out that we had a lack of due process for Al Franken. He asked for a hearing and didn’t get one, ergo…?

This isn’t a court of law. He resigned.

He could resolve this argument himself by stating publicly that he acknowledges his responsibility and does not put any of it on Sen. Gillibrand.

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I’ve never met the guy, so I’m speculating, but maybe the fact that he hasn’t suggests that he maintains his innocence, but is trying not to create fractures.

Again, I’m not suggesting he’s innocent, just pointing out we’ll have achieved full equality only when everyone get a full and fair hearing before sentence is passed…

One must have a certain perverse admiration for a topic designed so perfectly to do what it was intended to do . . . to destroy. Like a fire in a paper factory, it does this without compassion and without reason. It lives as long as one side sees it as a super-weapon to take out any target that comes into view, and the other side sees it as too volatile to touch and tries to disarm it only by tepid half-measures. (Actually, it is wonderfully effective if one is only seeking destruction, almost no matter how it turns out. It works if it succeeds in destroying the target or the originator, both or neither. No matter what, all sides get fully riled up and turn on each other.) Ironically, it ultimately ends up turning on itself, and destroying legitimate complaints. As we can see just by this thread, it is not possible to have a meaningful discussion unless everyone is willing to be reasonable and not determined to exclusively claim the high ground. That probably cannot happen in our deeply divided politics or in our crisis-driven media, and certainly not on a public forum.

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I do agree with your logic, I just don’t think it is as relevant to this specific situation than you think it is. But honestly, I’m weary of discussing this. Not because of you, or any one specific poster here, but I find it exhausting. I am glad I am not a woman. It must be the worst.

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