Did you think I was endorsing Tim Kaine? Did you actually read my post?
Who are you yelling at? I agree with you that Warren would be a great choice ā however, some measure of Sanders supporters will never be convinced and instead attacked Warren for selling out. There are a few constituencies that supported Sanders ā and some of them are not going to vote for HRC even to defeat Trump ā they will instead vote for Trump ā or what ever fantasy third party that will in effect be a vote for him. However, the majority will vote with mainstream democrats because they actually are also maintstream democrats ā and they are not going to abandon their party if they donāt get the VP they most prefer.
1 Like
What do you mean by āproportional influenceā?
Sanders was given the unprecedented concession of nominating five seats to the DNC platform committee.
What has he provided in return, besides innuendo ā which you seem happy to repeat ā that she is a corrupt warmongering traitor to liberal ideals?
1 Like
Please keep in mind that a large majority of Bernieās 40% are Democrats first and have been for a long time. Hillary may not have been their first choice, but they (again, a large majority of that 40%) vote Democratically. Just because they voted for Bernie in the primary doesnāt mean they are sitting on their butts and just demanding Hillary crawl over there to them and sweet-talk them into voting for a Democrat. I mean, seriously ā I know some of them personally and theyāve ALWAYS told me they will vote for whoever ended up the nominee. The remaining numbers (what is it now, 8% in some of the latest articles) are either truly non-Democrats and never intended to vote Democratically anyway or some of them really are interested in hearing what HRC has to say.
I was just pointing out that the line of reasoning you apply to Hillary is bad politics. Although I am sure her senior advisers tell her she can, she canāt ignore progressives. If she does, she risks losing a big hunk of them that she is going to need.
Eight percent is way lower than I have heard. The conventional number is 22%.
Hereās the thing, I also consider myself a Progressive. Always have. Hillary isnāt perfect, I know that. However, I want to win this election as well. SCOTUS is so much more important than whether Hillary is hard enough on Wall Street or gives a little too much deference to some of her Wall Street funders, etc. First off, we live in an age of Citizens United ā and funding is more important than ever. Much more than Iād like ā heck, Iām all in favor of publicly funding all elections, ALL of them ā but Iām a realist first and a Progressive a very close second. If weāre not in the chair at the front of the table, we wonāt even get a chance to push our Progressive agenda. A lot of this depends on down-ticket as well, but thatās mostly another story right now.
My whole point is that a LOT of Progressives arenāt for Bernie. I like what he fights for, but I donāt see any of that happening without all the hard work it takes ā¦ and that does not include just now signing up for the Dem Party (after thirty, forty years) and literally demanding changes. It doesnāt work that way. Heās an adult, and I thought heād know that.
3 Likes
Youāre so nice to sayā¦how far down did you dig for thatā¦
Stop using all caps.
A number of your statements in this topic indicate that you arenāt very informed or thinking this through carefully. I recommend spending more time reading & learning before you spend more time posting.
Hillary took ~55% of the popular vote while Bernie took ~43% of the popular vote among voters who participated in the primary. Of the Bernie voters, a very large segment, probably more than 80%, have already switched over to supporting Clinton. That means only about 8%-9% of that popular vote you are referring to hasnāt switched. Yet.
And, āyetā is a very important qualifier. Iād estimate at least half of them will come on board by the end of August. The remainder are pretty extreme and we, quite frankly, donāt need them. Theyāre both irrelevant and ignorant, as well as generally dissociated from reality.
It would be damaging for us to court them by trying to comply with their batshit crazy demands. This element is the hard core of the hard core. They are extremists, and very few of them seem to have more than a handfull of functioning brain cells to rub together. There is nothing there to court ā¦ it is the dregs of the most ignorant and ill-informed people who classify themselves with the left. A good chunk of them are not left or progressive ā¦ they simply are trying to burn the system down. They are more anarchist and libertarian than anything else, and their so-called āideologiesā are dangerous and harmful.
Hopefully they will grow up and become functioning members of society some day, maybe even for this and/or the 2018 elections.
The President of the United States āneedsā to represent all (theoretically) the people of the country. While that is impossible ā¦ due to the ignorance and outright stupid of a very significant chunk of our population ā¦ a President can certainly make a reasonable effort to represent at least 80%, and perhaps even pushing 90%. Pandering to the extremists on either end of the spectrum (and those that donāt even fit on the spectrum) is not the job of the President. It falls withing the professional jurisdiction of medical psychiatrists.
Elizabeth Warren would make a good Vice President, but she would be wasted in that function. Also, she is not needed in that position for any credible reason that someone else canāt fill, and many of them better at this time. I will be very disappointed in Hillary if she does pick Warren ā¦ I will consider that a dangerous red flag that Hillary isnāt nearly as smart as I think she is.
Which wonāt stop me from voting for her this election, but I will lose immense respect for if she does. I want to see something bold out of her, something a bit to her left and legacy-building for all of us, for all of humanity. Castro would be much more along the lines of a highly progressive, even activist, choice she could make, and make it work very, very well. Iām hoping for that, or something similar. It will give me much greater confidence that Hillary is prepared to shake things up a bit in a good way and move into the future.
If Hillary canāt beat trump on a Clinton/Castro ticket (or similar), then Hillary isnāt qualified to be President. She sure as Hell doesnāt need to pander to the final last few percent of Bernouts. They have nothing to contribute until they get more informed and gain some maturity to participate in a Democracy for all.
3 Likes
How is she ignoring progressives? By refusing to make a bunch of wild promises that she canāt keep?
2 Likes
Donāt confuse Bernie with what he found when he looked before deciding to run. It is a fact, while the recovery has been really good for some, it has been problematic for a lot of Americans. The Republican party is in turmoil because a lot of its base has been poorly served by the recovery. Those guys feel a lot of hopelessness. Trump has been controlling them by giving them targets, the wrong targets, but targets for their feelings of hopelessness.
Guess what there are also a lot of Democrats, especially younger people, who feel the same hopelessness. Mostly they blame the big banks and others who have profited from globalization and the enormous advances in technology. I think it is important for politicians to feel the pain of the millions left behind and to do something to redress income inequality. Part of the reason younger and progressive Democrats blame the Democratic establishment is the establishment is perceived as having thrown its lot in with the big banks and others who have profited during the recovery.
Hillary is in a bad place. She has to do something to let those Americans who arenāt in the establishment know that she feels their pain and intends to do something about it.
I think she recognizes the problem and has moved to adopt a lot of Bernieās positions to demonstrate that she does. A lot of her advisers and most loyal supporters donāt seem to understand the problem because they are really clueless as to the anger in the body politic.
And I would argue that a lot of people donāt understand Hillaryās positions and never took the time to investigate them.
3 Likes
I agree. My point is, her quid quo pro practical corporatism is more controlling than a political ideology. In this case, it conflicts with the best interests of working class Americans who are the āpriorityā of Sanders and the people who voted for him.
While I agree with nearly all of your second paragraphāand youāve made your point very well hereāI think randyabraham is right with a good number of the remainder who are still not on board, and that is they havenāt taken the time to actually read over her proposals, keeping in mind what is really doable in the world in which we live. I know many of the disaffected people ā many of them in my family. The younger ones in particular donāt understand without us older ones helping to explain how things came about. Even some of them, donāt quite understand it. Global economics is extremely complicated because politics always is partly involved ā¦ if not wholly involved. Yes, high tech has also changed our world, not just immigration (which, btw, isnāt really that much different than itās been for a very long time ā but the world is getting much much smaller now and resources are getting scarcer).
1 Like
A lot of them donāt care how things came about. They just see that all most all the money is moving to the top while their futures look increasingly bleak. Right or left, that is the perception that is fueling the 2016 election.
What they do care about is what Hillary is going to do about it. That is what she needs to articulate. Frankly telling Americans that she is going to do little things is not going to cut it. I am happy to see that she is pivoting to a more progressive general election message.
Listen to her speech today ā really detailed about her plans.
1 Like
The air of negativity in your posts negates all positives and any hope. Iām not sure yet if you do it intentionally, accidentally, inherently or trollishly.
You truly have never likely had it so good and yet you instinctively always want more. I wonder if any realization ever sets in. What world do you see coming? Who is the leader in that world and who will work with that person in our government?
You seem to talk pie in the sky Osage, get down to nuts and bolts man, lets hear it, lay it out, the stage is yours.
No pressure but if you bail then you pose, know what Iām sayinā?
Does it ever occur to you how many people that you insult at once?
Your Bernie support is undeniable and thatās all good but every time that you paint the Hillary crowd as you do, it offends.
As much as you recognize the slights to Bernie and crow how weāll need his people, you totally ignore the opposite affect. You insult us and you need us just as much if anything having to do with the Bernie movement is ever to come to be.
Iām sure that that is your goal and not just bitching to bitch?
Hillary isnāt in a bad place politically, she holds all the cards and is going to win and that as they say is that. Why do you choose to go negative? And that is what you do, in case that you donāt recognize it.
I can kind of hear your argument coming. But listen, justifying Bernieās position at this point is negative, in all sorts of ways. The man is done, the goose is cooked, the party is over. These are all ways to say, quit arguing the indefensible and realize that itās time to move on to the big win.
It just is, your response needs to reflect that or else your living in the past.
Does it ever occur to me how many people I insult at once? Not in connection with this post. I didnāt intend to insult anybody.
Just who did I insult in this post?
Hillaryās negatives are sky high. If she were facing a stronger candidate we would all be worrying. To fail to recognize that simple fact is to engage in denial of the obvious.
The question is how does she reduce the negatives. She has no chance to bring back the older Reagan Democrats. She does have a chance to convert younger people who know her only from what they have been told by Fox News. How does she do that? Well she has to embrace their issues. You can bad mouth Bernie all you want but he caught on to something obvious. Young people are feeling very neglected by older Democrats. Their issues, all of which revolve around wanting a brighter future for themselves and their children, are the very issues that Democrats have to embrace more fully.
You might not have noticed, but Hillary has been moving leftward since she put Bernie away. Why, because she is smart. She also has what Elizabeth Warren calls a good heart.