Withholding the armor was certainly a Hitlerian-class screw up, but I think they were lost when the first of the three divisions of airborne troops started jumping out of their planes or unloading their gliders. Between the Americans, the British, the Canadians, the French and the Poles (plus a few Aussies flying with the RAF), the Allies landed almost 160,000 troops on the five invasion beaches in the first 24 hours alone. Once the first few bunkers and pillboxes fell, the rest was inevitable.
Now, could the Panzers have turned things around? My money would be on the Fifth Airforce ground attack planes, the numerically superior (if qualitatively inferior) Allied armor and the lack of supply infrastructure, given how many bridges the Allies had managed to knock out.
As the Air Force likes to say today about their latest radar-guided missiles - âOnce you fire it, the other guyâs dead, he just doesnât know it yetâŚâ
The issue for D-Day was the disposition of the non-Calais based Panzer forces. As you are aware, Von Rundstedt and Rommel had strong disagreements about the disposition of the panzers that formed the closest reserve to the beach. Hitler settled the dispute by requiring his ok to release the forces.
Based on having played a number of realistic operational level war games, e.g.
one can conclude that if the the 1st SS or 2nd SS PzKorp had been positioned to counter-attack within the first 24 hours it would have been a damn close run thing. As it was, the only division available was the 21st Pz Division that fielded very few actual tanksâŚ
[quote=âdarcy, post:5, topic:82928â]
The kid soldiers who fortified the Wall at Omaha beach spent 2-3 years waiting for the Allied invasion, doing very little other than playing the beach, writing home how they enjoyed their time in France.
[/quote]My uncle and the several thousand other buried on the bluff above Omaha beach may disagree with your assertion they were up against children.
But Allied intelligence was excellent, so if the Panzers had actually been south of the Seine and ready to go, then steps would have been taken to mitigate the threat. They could have moved the invasion, focused more tactical air power on stopping them, etc. As it was, the pre-invasion bombardment campaign did a superb job of cutting connections across France (taking care to do so all over, to avoid showing their hand early) so getting large numbers of tanks across rivers and too the front proved a âvery hard problemâ that only got worse as the campaign went on. Then the Allies hit them again in the south of France in August and the game was over.
This is not to belittle the achievement absolutely sooo much went into making that invasion a success it boggles the mindâŚ
I didnât âassertâ they were fighting against children. I was referring to a documentary.
The Allied commanders expected the casualties to be very high on the beaches during the invasion. Soldiers who died on the beaches had nowhere to hide or retreat to. No Plan B. And the German fortifications were were well-positioned and formidable. Age of the German soldiers had little to do with the high Allied casualty rates. That your uncle fought and died for his country (and the world) in the Battle of Good against Evil is to always be respected. My intention was not to diminish his sacrifice.
You make many valid points and I am not really in disagreement. Ironically the 8th AF leadership was pissed that they were used tactically to go after the French rail and bridge network as opposed to dropping bombs on Berlin.
And it is very true that the âJabosâ greatly hindered movement of the SS PzK that was south of the Loire turning a 1 day march into 3 days. I also agree that the moment the Allies had secured a beachhead it was effectively over. However, I stand by the observation that if the 3 Pz divisions that Rommel had at his disposal were in more forward positions, the outcome might have been in doubtâŚ
And, yes, the planning and detail that COSSAC went into was truly remarkable. Call it âbig governmentâ at its finestâŚ
Not a WWII history buff but read this little book about a spy, a Spaniard, Juan Pujol Garcia, who went to England and helped the Alllies convince Hitler - and keep him convinced (critical part) - that the Allied Invasion was to be in Calais. To my surprise, a documentary was also made. Great story and fascinating stuff, right out of the movies. This link might help, forgot the exact title of the book. @asturcot
Omaha was defended by one of better German infantry divisions, the 352nd, assigned to the Atlantic Wall. The fraction of non-German troops that had been âpress gangedâ into its service was minimalâŚ
Combining that with the terrain made it a very difficult objective.
While on the subject of D-Day, the victory that was guaranteed by being able to hold a beachhead for the first 24-48 hrs was by the standards of WWII incredibly cheap in human sacrifice given the strategic magnitude of the accomplishment when compared to the bloodletting on the Eastern FrontâŚ
Thatâs⌠from the OB Rag. OB is the Berkeley of San Diego (and even has the same nickname), so it calling anything âright wingâ isnât saying much.
KUSI is editorially pretty normal, and as the only non-network-affiliate TV station with a local news bureau it has a fair amount of respect here.
KUSI is a CNN wire service subscriber, and itâs the only non-affiliate local station with a news team. CNN has an affiliate agreement with them and typically uses them for local color and live video feeds in San Diego.
Iâm actually more surprised that CNN would have reached out to any OTHER stations, except maybe Fox 5 (since Fox Broadcasting doesnât run a national network news team).
@darcy I took it to mean you thought the Germans fielded kids on Omaha Beach. This is your post:
âThe kid soldiers who fortified the Wall at Omaha beach spent 2-3 years
waiting for the Allied invasion, doing very little other than playing
the beach, writing home how they enjoyed their time in France.â
I visited that beach in 1988 and saw my uncleâs grave and I cried. Hard. I still tear up remembering. So. I am sensitive on the subject.
On that trip in 1988 a close buddy, his dad and I visited various battle fields around France. I personally saw some 100,000 graves (our own estimate from many sites) from all armies and countries. Having researched the invasion on D-Day myself, it was no cakewalk except on one part of one of the three British beaches and at Utah where they landed on the wrong beach. Omaha was by far the worst and without General Norman Cota and the 29th Division it would have failed. On that same trip we had the extraordinary and accidental great good fortune to meet some of the Brits who assaulted Pegasus Bridge on the Orne river. I got to spend an incredible 20 minutes talking to Maj. John Howard who commanded that action that was depicted in the movie âThe Longest Dayâ. It really did happen as depicted. Turned out Maj. Howard visited the various sites of D-Day on an annual basis from the 1950âs onward until he died. Here he is with the bridge behind him:
This in my estimation is a real hero. And real heroes are a rare commodity.
No disrespect meant toward you, darcy.
Allied intelligence did an absolutely amazing job throughout the war, and in particular in fooling the Axis as to locations for invasions, etc. Earlier in the war, as they prepared to invade Sicily, they dressed a corpse in uniform, created fake identity papers and attached a briefcase with handcuffs which contained elaborate plans for an invasion of Sardinia. The body was left in the ocean off Spain (a German sympathizer at the time) and sure enough, the Spanish handed it over and the Germans prepared for the invasion in the wrong island.
So for D-Day in France, they did so much of the same - created a fake army commanded by Patton in the south of England, with fake radio traffic, etc. The night of the invasion they had British (actually Australian) bombers flying a square grid pattern dropping radar-reflecting chaff (strips of aluminium foil) to fake a fleet approaching Calais at 20 knots. The Germans got all ready, an as the sun came up - oops, the âfleetâ disappeared. Meanwhile, troops were ashore throughout Normandy but the Germans had been assured that was the âfakeâ this time, so were just too hesitant to mount an effective defense.
All in all, just brilliant.
A couple of good books on the WW II intelligence war are âDouble Cross: The True Story of the D-Day Spiesâ, and âMost Secret Warâ, by the guy who was Churchillâs science advisor during the war. It a lot of different technology efforts, including the use of radar, codebreaking and a whole lot more.
And for a more technical view of the code-breaking efforts thereâs David Kahnâs âThe Codebreakersâ (which was actually assigned reading in my grad-level cryptography course). Truly wonderful stuffâŚ
Allied intelligence did an absolutely amazing job throughout the war, and in particular in fooling the Axis as to locations for invasions, etc. Earlier in the war, as they prepared to invade Sicily, they dressed a corpse in uniform, created fake identity papers and attached a briefcase with handcuffs which contained elaborate plans for an invasion of Sardinia. The body was left in the ocean off Spain (a German sympathizer at the time) and sure enough, the Spanish handed it over and the Germans prepared for the invasion in the wrong island.
So for D-Day in France, they did so much of the same - created a fake army commanded by Patton in the south of England, with fake radio traffic, etc. The night of the invasion they had British (actually Australian) bombers flying a square grid pattern dropping radar-reflecting chaff (strips of aluminium foil) to fake a fleet approaching Calais at 20 knots. The Germans got all ready, an as the sun came up - oops, the âfleetâ disappeared. Meanwhile, troops were ashore throughout Normandy but the Germans had been assured that was the âfakeâ this time!
All in all, just brilliant.
A couple of good books on the intelligence war are ""Double Cross: The True Story
