Discussion: As Trump Digs In His Heels, Democrats Inch Towards Impeachment

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“My grandfather used to say that duck hunting is a lot of fun until the ducks start firing back."

Hmm.

Maybe his grand-father was doing it wrong!

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According to the New York Times …

… Steny Hoyer is changing his tune.

Another good sign.

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It seems useful to project ahead to impeachment proceedings. Bill Clinton testified during his, but, from what we have seen so far, Trump may very well refuse to testify. What happens then?

Also, with the Repubs in the majority in the Senate, how does that influence how impeachment proceedings would unfold? Could the majority simply vote down calling Trump to testify, or nix requests for information, or is it an open forum in terms of information requests or demands?

We need some context here as to what the Democrats in the Senate would be able to do during an impeachment trial.

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In light of the administration’s continued defiance, pushing off impeachment talk is becoming untenable.

Trump may very very be goading Democrats to impeach to unite the Republican base, but the talk of it is already doing that to a degree.

And by not going for impeachment the democratic base is not uniting and is the new proxy to fight the moderate/corporate/progressive/far-left.

My opinion is if Leadership continues to show the movement toward impeachment the party can be United on that front and leave the other fight where it belongs, the primary for president.

As many have said… Leadership will move as the party and the public requires them to, goading or not, the administration is forcing our hand.

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Everyone needs to remember that impeachment is a gun with only one bullet. If you fire too soon, you’ll likely miss and then you have nothing. This is really not something we should be rushing towards.

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Clinton did not testify in impeachment proceedings.

He twice provided testimony under oath, once in a civil deposition in the lawsuit filed by Paula Jones; and again before a grand jury led by Ken Starr.

In the impeachment proceedings that followed, Clinton was accused of having lied in both instances.

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Trump has one gear: Obstruct

The fucker is demonstrably guilty. There is no scenario in which he would not have been arrested, charged, tried, found guilty, sentenced and incarcerated if he were anyone else in America.

He knows that.

He has the tools (and “rules”) of his office to stay out of jail.

He has the communicative devices and allies to mount what is, in effect, a war against those who would bring him to justice. It is a courtroom fight in the sense that Trump and his allies are endeavoring for him to never face any sort of trial a citizen of the United States would undergo when faced with this sort of criminality.

The X factor is the public which is seeing this unfold. I would say that about 90% of this is in the hands of the people right now. Polling favoring Impeachment is not very high right now. It will get much higher if about 5% of Trump’s bestiality is exposed to the population.

Trump’s solution?

Block the release of everything about Trump, his Administration, its correspondence, witnesses, etc. and hope that the GOP and FOX can convince people to “move on”.***

I do not believe this will work.

*** McConnell gave the talking point/goal (“Case Closed”) yesterday

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Fuck the base
It’s 40% vs the rest of us
Rachel said it last night , the view from 60,000 ft
All the various subplots boil down to one thing.
They are doing everything to bury the Mueller report
It’s all Trump vs the Mueller report.
They are terrified. They have not released one scrap of paper requested on everything they have been doing. There’s a lot to hide
If they can get Mueller to testify
Game , Set and Match

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This is all important to be talking about.

However, more so because its important from a civics lesson point of view, not about whether it is wise to pursue impeachment.

We would want to know what to expect, constitutional process and such, so when the administration tries to stray from it it is something we all understand.

Trump is forcing impeachment. We really can’t ignore criminal contempt of the constitution

Blowback from Impeachment over lying about sex, was to be expected. WJC Being a scumbag to his wife is something Republicans could have made hay over without the impeachment cudgel.

In the case of Trump, literally the only tool is that cudgel.

In a same world, I’d agree an election is best way to go after Trump. In the current world where Trump is basically leaving the door wide open for election meddling foreign and domestic, and an EC instead of popular vote we are stuck and impeachment as the least bad option.

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I wish this could be put on a bumper sticker. If Trump is still out of jail and on the ballot in Nov. 2020, he plans to have special ways of getting the vote and counting it.

For him, it’s Emperor Trump or a fate worse than jail…and the ways it can happen either way. Trump is not doing all of this for kicks. He knows that this is the only play for him

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It’s too early to say he can’t be impeached before hearings are actually held. When Nixon was threatened with impeachment — IIRC he resigned before it was voted on in the Senate — Republicans were doing everything they could to protect him. It was only during impeachment proceedings and his crimes were revealed that they changed their tune.

While it would take 19 Guardians Of Plutocrats Senators to successfully impeach him, that may not be entirely unachievable.

Once the truth comes out and Rethugliklan voters finally see the extent of his myriad crimes, there will be a lot of pressure on them. Moreover, many GOP seats are up in 2020, with many of them in vulnerable states.

They only thing they fear more than losing power is losing their jobs. November 2020 is a long way off and a lot can change.


The ballot has not been set for 2020 yet. And if states keep passing laws that say a presidential candidate must release his taxes to be on that state’s ballot, he may not have a chance in hell even appearing.

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The details you’re asking about would be decided by a simple majority vote; so it’s arguable that Democrats would have slightly more influence there – than in a final vote to convict, which would require a two-thirds majority.

Not high enough, I agree.

That said, as soon as Pelosi signals impeachment support, polls will jump as virtually all of the dems not supporting impeachment fearing overreach will jump in both feet.

That gets us over 50%

Once proceedings start, there will be more obstructions but also more revelations. I believe it will bend even more toward wider support for impeachment.

It’s a big heavy freight train, but there is the start of inertia, once that baby gets up to speed… oh boy.

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Correct. Impeachment is the LAST STEP you take to bring the Executive Branch to heel, not the FIRST.

The Democrats are doing this correctly; Slowly, offering EVERY opportunity to the President to comply, not leaving ANY legal route untried, making sure that the American Public know that they are being FORCED to Impeach the Orange Menace.
It is HIGHLY FRUSTRATING to sit by and watch this slow-motion train wreck, but that is how legal proceeding are (I KNOW that Impeachment is a Political function and not legal, but you know what I mean.)
The Democrats are laying the groundwork for a slam-dunk Impeachment that will bring the American Public along with them (well, the 85% that are not Neo-Nazis) and that takes TIME and careful application of the Congressional Powers.
Remember, it took over 2 YEARS to get to the Impeachment Proceedings against Nixon.

There are 18 months until the 2020 election, and if you shoot your bolt now, you have NOTHING LEFT.
Unfortunately, the American People have VERY short memories, and right now, is waaaayyy too soon to Impeach as we want those Impeachment Hearings FRESH in the voters minds when the election comes around.

The cracks are already starting to show in the MSM’s coverage of all this, with the merely Conservative outlets already wondering out loud WTF is Trump doing? You will NEVER get the Reich-Wing outlets (Sinclair, FOX Pundits, etc.) to question Dear Leader, so don’t bother, but the REST of the MSM is starting to wake up to the reality of this situation.

Now, there is the threat that Trump will start a WAR with IRAN to distract the MSM (who would DEARLY LOVE to have a WAR to cover as it’s fantastic for their ratings and dirt-cheap to do as the US Military provides them with hours and hours of footage to run for FREE) but hopefully the US Military Command will push back on these reckless attempts at provocation.

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Two great, intuitive posts. This one and the other one I remarked about. Dems and everyone not a Trumper are in abject paralyzing fear for their country. Once they see that Trump is a weak, stupid hood, the dominoes WILL fall.

FAST

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Valid point.

I think the Inverse is also true.

Another point I have not seen raised is
If we wait too long, we stomp on the primary. Starting before we have a settled nominee and before the primary votes start, I think gives our candidates more room and the Congress takes hits on any missteps vs the nominee.

Also closer we get to 2020, it could play more as craven politics.

And remember…
It all starts in the house where we control the speed and the optics.

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I agree.

But you have to admit that the conversation is changing pretty rapidly from a debate about “if” impeachment to “when”

That is big. It will push momentum in favor of impeachment.

The cracks you mention in “Conservative” (read:radical) Media are a start.

But really only 5-6 months until the primary is hot. I think we need to consider we dont want to drown our candidates out.

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Trump’s fear…work on THAT

Aggressively work to get the dope on Trump out to the public. This is not a war with howitzers and mortars. It’s an INFORMATION WAR.

For an INFORMATION AGE

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It’s coming. I don’t think anything can stop it now. The Trump administration has just been too brazen in their attempts at obstruction. And I don’t think that bullshit about “independents” not being onboard is going to make any difference. The Dem base is demanding this action more every day, for enough good and well-founded reasons. This isn’t like the GOP base that wanted Hillary frog-marched when there wasn’t any evidence whatsoever that she had done anything wrong. (And I STILL want to see one GOP witness withstand 11 hours of testimony without breaking down in tears. LOL!)

I also don’t believe that bullshit about Trump and the GOP “welcoming” an impeachment inquiry. The Dems are not like the GOP when they were doing their batshit investigations into Hillary and the IRS and those other useless show trials. The Dems are going to do a slow and steady investigation before even bringing up an impeachment vote, with a ton of witnesses and testimony, and the last thing Trump and the GOP want is a daily drip of multiple crimes on TV and the papers and the Internet. Perhaps if fools like Jim Jordan or Mark Meadows or Devin Nunes or Trey Gowdy or Jason Chaffetz were on the Dem investigative committees they would welcome an impeachment inquiry, but a reality like that only exists in their mescaline-fueled dreams.

But it’s coming.

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