Not sure why they need legal rep. Singing is not doing. If there was a black pledge on the bus at the time, I’d think some charges could be found. I also doubt they have much of a case to force their way to stay on campus.
I have to wonder what the kids are trying to prove by hiring a lawyer. Do they really want to prove that they have the right to be racist pigs? That’s already a given so they would just be proving that they are and can be so they were racist pigs. They can’t clear their name by admitting what they did in court just to get what they already have.
In fact, it seems frivolous.
Surely their point is not to have their frat back on campus so that they can continue on their merry racist way.
It seems to me that this should’ve enlightened them a bit and made them realize that its time to move on and to walk a straighter path. Their lawyer might advise them that it would be best to let this one pass.
As far as the attorney, he wouldn’t be my choice because out of the gate he has issues in the state and with a very high profile similar case. Considering where these frat boys come from and this lawyers proclivities, I’d say that that someone already had a connection.
Boren is also a person that has recently been revealed to have used his position to intimidate state geologists from stating a link between the process of fracking and our (Oklahoma) recent huge spike in earthquakes. As a member of academia, I find it rather disturbing that a university president (and member of a oil company board of directors) would suppress knowledge. This SAE scandal came just in time for him.
It’s not clear that the kids hired the lawyer - I can’t yet find a definite answer to who did…It’s either the fraternity there on campus or the national fraternity with the point being were they accorded proper legal protections which everyone deserves. While I think the president’s response made a point and they will (at least hopefully) - as you say “walk a straighter path” - I’m not sure an opportunity wasn’t missed to engage in a larger conversation that might not just have changed behavior but might also have changed minds and hearts. These are young people and universities are for learning more than just what’s in course work. I also, and no one has mentioned this, am a little bothered by the posting of stupid behavior on Youtube - We all I’m sure did stupid things growing up…And this case may not be the best example - maybe it was justified here- but I just think -Thank God some of the things I said or did in an unthinking moment were able to remain private…
I’ll have to read more about this guy- he sounds interesting overall…I think in the case of Tim McVeigh - wasn’t he appointed as the defender? I don’t know about his tactics - I’ll read more but I do find it interesting the spectrum of people he’s defended. I understand that in OK any defender of Tim McVeigh is not going to be popular but it is part of our legal system that everyone deserves a day in court irregardless of how horrible the public may think them to be. A lawyer shouldn’t be blamed for that. Do you have a source regarding the “unethical tactics”?
In any case, I don’t see how a legal battle helps them. At this point actions will speak much louder than words.
They have work to do and should hire a PR agent and save the legal funds.
Yes, I don’t believe anyone would want their every bad decision posted on the World Wide Web. But did you really pay attention to what these guys were singing and how much fun they were having doing it. It is supposedly a tradition with this fraternity nationally that goes back quite a ways, so these guys will be made examples of because they got caught.
There are many fraternity activities that are considered a little off color or however you would like to describe them, hazing stands out, but singing about not including blacks and hanging them from trees will never fly, anywhere. These aren’t dumb people, in fact I’ll bet that they are considered the smart ones, but what college attempts to do is to round individuals and to make them complete. This includes understanding socially accepted norms and not crossing some of those lines.
I did listen to what they said and my own feeling about fraternities in general is that they bring out stupid behavior and are best avoided. With the issue of racism I guess I just am tired of hearing that it’s a problem…I think everyone gets that it is…now I’d like to see a solution or at least some steps toward a solution and I’m just not sure that punishing a behavior without getting at it’s core is going to do much. I’m afraid it might just push everyone into further entrenched, opposing positions.
So, you are saying that no penalty whatsoever should be applied because it might upset the offenders? Everyone, except those that profit from it, are tired of racism but it isn’t just going away on its own and it may never. It is its own little war that will always be a battle, as unfortunate as that is.
This behavior is basically the core. The fact that these ‘upper tier college’ students had no problem at all and were in fact proud of singing this out loud is the issue. They know that they are discriminating and yet they do it with glee. Hopefully, their punishment will make not only themselves but the others that do the very same but haven’t been outed like these guys, stop and think about what it really is that they are doing and then not continue the practice and especially not hand it down to the next generation.
This issue is a hate issue, the hatred of others and hateful people will definitely dig in and live in denial. Racism is a widespread problem but other than the KKK, who admits to it? I see what these frat boys were singing about as a classic example of racism and yet, I’ll guarantee you that they don’t consider them self racists, at least when the public eye is on them because while they have no problem being racist they do understand the shame that it brings on them and thus, the denial.
And finally, being more entrenched in the fight against racism is a good thing. I think that colored people only seek equality, not to become the racists themselves.
If the fraternity has been disbanded, where’s Jones’ money coming from or In other words, who is paying Jones?
Agree completey with Poindexter.
NOTE TO TALKING POINTS MEMO EDITORS & JOSH IN PARTICULAR: I subscribed to TPM Prime in hopes that you wouldn’t turn to chumming your audience, appealing to lowest common denominator in your coverage.
This story is beneath you and the audience I hope you want to have. I fear you’re so far in the bubble of relative expectations that you’re losing your moorings.
I don’t believe I said there should be no penalty…or at least that’s not what I meant yet a penalty independent of reflection and conversation aimed at education seems superficial and ultimately doesn’t seem like it will change much. I just wonder if it’ll drive the behavior underground and make them all feel like victims rather than driving them to consider their own actions.
What’s the sense of having a bunch of people who know how to act in public but still harbor hatred inside? Especially if these same people end up in a position of influence…
As far as a penalty I think the banning of the fraternity from campus is appropriate although I wonder at how it was done because it penalizes everyone - guilty or not and that’s unfair. Maybe they are all jerks and it’s deserved but I don’t know that and tend to like to give people the benefit of the doubt.
At any rate, hopefully you’re right and Boren’s action will lead to self reflection - it’ s all very unfortunate for everyone concerned.
In fact, it’s the unpopular who are the most need of a good defense. After all, the Miranda warning doesn’t say “You have the right to an attorney if you haven’t pissed people off.”.
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America has a long, strong history of the legal representation of many unpopular things, including speech. I wonder how likely it is that the frat will prevail and what is required for a public institution to disband/close a frat. I’m curious because the University of Maryland Kappa Sigma issue involved the promotion of rape in addition to covering more than black people in the racist email.
Is there a bright line, and, if so, what is it?
Jones worked for years to spread conspiracy theories into the media that Terry Nichols was the perpetrator of the bombing and McVeigh was uninvolved. At other times, he worked to spread other conspiracies that contradicted the one involving Nichols. He smeared Nichols’ defense lawyers as well, implying they were involved in some sort of coverup of the bombing itself. It went far beyond the “vigorous defense” any client deserves under our system.
They need legal representation to file a lawsuit (e.g., to be reinstated, or expelled/banned on more favorable terms), or to advise them of their legal options and help them settle on the best course of action from their standpoint. That’s basically why anyone needs a lawyer.
Screaming the n-word and then laughing about it is “controversial,” to say nothing of totally fucking awful. Hiring a lawyer when you’re this deep in shit isn’t.
The chapter might have been bounced from the national organization and banned from the university, but it still exists as a legal entity, with bank accounts and so forth. It also has alumni who can (and presumably are) rallying to its cause with more money.
Basically, the money is probably coming from the old-boy network that made these frats so toxic even before they started screaming the n-word on camera.